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Perhaps Why the Music and the USA is What it is..Today


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cornet56
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Perhaps Why the Music and the USA is What it is..Today Reply with quote

sitting around in my paris flat waiting to catch a plane to tokyo and i don't have to pack as I live here and in Tokyo too--split my time. so i decided to write this little post if for no other reason it will keep me from smoking till i catch my flight or stop me from going downstairs and eating some glace I'll regret tomorrow. Also did all of my practicing for the day.

Lets think of the 60s--what many will think as the pivitol time in modern jazz/modern society.

Now lets think about those (some who come to my mind, anyways) people who died in what some might call 'before there time." Not so sure of that idea since I'm into gentecs/theo/intevention/helio matrix patterns.

In no order of importance: they're all important.

Scott LaFarro, Booker Little, John Coltrane, the Kennedy's, Malcolm X, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King--and more I'm forgetting as I contemplate the horrors of a 14 hr plane ride and the re-acluturation--not to mention the jet lag going east.

The world and creative improvised music loosley, these days, known as jazz would be in a far better-and honest-place if these people had lived out their lives. Perhaps.

So today, or really since about 1979-1981, we have had or sorts of neo-this and neo-that and players who don't want anything to do with the tradition/linear development of jazz (actually quite short)

Every once and a while, someone will tell me about some new trpt player, so I'll check it out--usually on my space or some u-tube and I think to myself--very nice...but I can go right to the source of just about everything that I hear.

Now in Scott Laffaro's case, he died I think at 25, and just a couple of weeks after the Bill Evans Live at the VV recordings. And further, never touched the bass until he was about 17. i find that very interesting. Woody Shaw is a good example--at 19--his first "recording" (never attracted the ears of a recording co and wasn't "relaeased" until years later--a sad pattern that would haunt him to his dying day.) And Woody didn't touch a trpt untill he was 11; maybe a bugle or something like that before.

Now before the rath of the TH thunders its' mighty fury against me--I can tell you that a lot of guy's like me feel the same way--guy's my age and a bit older or a bit younger-I'm 52) And while, for reasons beyond the scope of this missive, I am not a well known public figure in the jazz world--a glance at my sites provided below willo show who my friends are and what they say about me--a I think giving me a bit of license to say:

There really is no 'testing ground' anymore for young players being judged, as was the case for me, by players such as Jounior Cook and Albert Daily and Tommy Turrentine.

It's about image..can you fill a very expensive room. And the little I keep up with what goes down in the US pretty much confirms that whoever these rich people who have the bread to go to a place like Dizzys-cocacola or places like that-they want entertainment--not from some seasoned pro (for the most part--there are notable exceptions-I am aware) they want some young kid to play faster, higher and louder...and lots of times not keeping with the changes of the tune.

Sure there are small joints in manhatten where you can sit in--but the people who are your 'judge' are not the father's of the music.

In some ways, things haven't changed that much--except a lot of trumpet players out there aspire to put out music that has a cursury reference to the tradition of the jazz trpt. and much more to an appeal to the masses at large--as can be seen by bookings at clubs in every major US city.

Funny, the guy's who I think play some of the most creative avant music can also play like KD, Freddie, and others who formed the modern jazz trumpet.

Reductively--can you play a highly credible solo on Giant Steps and Milestones (old version) and at various tempos??

Sure, do your thing: I do--but I can also do, and have done in public what I mention in the pentultimate paragraph. Hope you can to. Gotta catch a plane...but I will smoke and eat some glace..right downstairs!!

Best,

Mike

Dr. Michael A. Missiras
Professor of Music Emeritus
Minnesota State University
Teaching Fellow: Jazz Studies
Eastman School of Music
Visiting Professor of Media Studies
Utsunomiya University, Japan
www.myspace.com/mikemissiras
www.myspace.com/drmissirascornetproject
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markp
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

I'm sure you're a wonderful player with all kinds of marvelous insights into jazz. But I respectfully suggest that you put in a little time honing your written communcation skills.

I can't figure out what the the hell you are saying. Are you depressed, disgusted, hopful--hungry?

Are you writing with some kind of purpose--to communicate certain convictions you have? If so, you are not effectively using the tools that the English language provides.

If your dissertation reads anything like this meandering and convoluted essay, its a wonder they ever let you near students.

If you want to come off as an unlikable, pretentious snob, listing all your pedigrees as you sit in your Paris flat (doesn't everyone have one?) I guess that's a matter of personal style. But I'd suggest figuring out a way to make your point clearly before you start looking for places to use "reductively" and "penultimate."
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Mark,
It looks a little half baked but judging by the title I would say that Mike you are not happy with the music in the US today. That's my guess. If that is the case then that topic is too big for me. I don't listen to the radio and I know many talented people who will never be famous who are light years beyond what is recorded and put out for the masses. If I 'm wrong and that is not your point I am curious to know what you mean.
Have a good flight
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too was flummoxed.....








How's that prewar?
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m4
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I remember it well......
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PiCK Kanstul
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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markp
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This cat reminds me of a friend I once had. The guy was truly brilliant.

However, everyone hated him because he was always bragging about how damn smart he was.

When he was whining to me about his unpopularity one day, I remember saying to him, "If you are so damn smart, why can't you learn a little discipline and learn to rein in the arrogance?"

I actually know quite a few guys like this. Maybe the part of the brain that houses the genius for music muscles out the part that contains humility and the ability to sense how one is perceived socially by others.

Fortunately, this deficiency doesn't effect most of the VERY TOP guys. Bobby Shew, Arturo Sandoval and Willie Thomas have talents that make this guy seem like a Lilliputian, but they have maintained the ability to see other musicians as their fellow man first, and don't feel the need to lord anything over them.

Any chance that they could start teaching this skill to budding artists at Berkely, North Texas and Julliard?
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dqjazz
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me the OP to is basically stating that it is not as important to be good today as compared to the 60's. It is more about image and can you sell out a room.

He also states that today's younger generation of players are more obsessed with doing their own thing rather than learning the craft from the tradition. I do believe this of many players but it is a generalization.
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markp
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, so THAT"S what he meant! Why didn't he just say so?

You have a bright future as a translator for troubled geniuses who can't compose a coherent paragraph on their own.


Last edited by markp on Tue May 26, 2009 12:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markp wrote:
Thanks dqjazz!

You have a bright future as a translator for troubled geniuses who can't compose a comprehensible paragraph on their own.

Maybe they should consider this translation skill of yours, along with social skills mentioned earlier as possible minors for jazz studies majors.

As it is, the next generation of buggy-whip makers (oops! I meant jazz-studies majors) is being sorely underserved.


dqjazz is merely stating his opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but to ridicule it says more about you than it does about dqjazz or the OP. I agree that the point the OP is trying to make is difficult to determine from his post, but you can make your point and still be courteous.
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TrumpetJoel
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevermind
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Last edited by TrumpetJoel on Mon May 25, 2009 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fleebat
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Before his edit, Joel said he couldn't understand why anyone would spend time slamming the OP, or something to that extent. My reply:)

No, what you can't understand is that those of us who have been here for a while have endured any number of circular arguments from this same source (as user name "M4") that have no point other than to repeatedly name-drop and tout credentials and to diss anyone and anything that falls outside of the poster's own inspirational and experiential paths. Try posing a parallel or slightly modified argument; let alone stating your own views if they differ, and you'll be verbally sliced to pieces for weeks in every thread in which you try to participate (as much as a verbal slicing can be affected with a dull instrument).


M4 lives.

Eeesh.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Click Here
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PiCK Kanstul
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
verbally sliced to pieces for weeks in every thread in which you try to participate (as much as a verbal slicing can be affected with a dull instrument)


Verbal slicing. dull instrument.

good, Rusty. .
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TrumpetJoel
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleebat wrote:
(Before his edit, Joel said he couldn't understand why anyone would spend time slamming the OP, or something to that extent. My reply:)

No, what you can't understand is that those of us who have been here for a while have endured any number of circular arguments from this same source (as user name "M4") that have no point other than to repeatedly name-drop and tout credentials and to diss anyone and anything that falls outside of the poster's own inspirational and experiential paths. Try posing a parallel or slightly modified argument; let alone stating your own views if they differ, and you'll be verbally sliced to pieces for weeks in every thread in which you try to participate (as much as a verbal slicing can be affected with a dull instrument).


M4 lives.

Eeesh.


No, I understand that, and I've seen it! I know what you're talking about...I deleted my post because I didn't read some of the first responses carefully enough, and I responded too harshly to them, venting my frustration about some of the recent trends here on TH (perhaps rendering myself a hypocrite). The trend I am speaking of in particular: people seem to go the extra mile on TH recently to be just mean as hell to each other, talk down to each other, make snide remarks, etc. I don't get it, and it's just annoying, that's all---can't we all just get along? Perhaps this thread is not the place, and looking back, that's not necessarily what's going on here (which is why I deleted my earlier post)---but it just makes for an unpleasant experience. Who the hell wants to go and read this crap all the time! I keep coming back because it can be a great place....but I'm just sayin...for what it's worth! Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about....but either way, sorry for a quick and errant first post---to whom it may concern.
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Def Trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Perhaps Why the Music and the USA is What it is..Today Reply with quote

With all the university jazz programs in the world, there are more players who can play pretty darn good. However, I agree with you that there is less of a live testing ground for these players then for young players in the '60s. Which is the same reason you don't get to hear many great players. Where are they going to play?!

In a greater sense, Woody and Freddie came up in a time that their style of playing was new and innovative. I mean, nobody was playing like Woody before him! On a basic improvisation level it is incredibly difficult to go beyond what Woody did. Just to get to his level is an admirable career goal for most average jazz musicians. And then, out of those players who get to the level of a Woody Shaw or a John Coltrane only a handful are going to have the creative vision to take the music to another place.

Throw in the fact that there just aren't that many venues to play live on a regular basis and even the most advanced jazz musician is going to have difficulty developing their music. I think there are probably a lot of incredible jazz musicians in the world, but the chances of you never hearing/knowing them is much greater now than in the '60s.

cornet56 wrote:
sitting around in my paris flat waiting to catch a plane to tokyo and i don't have to pack as I live here and in Tokyo too--split my time. so i decided to write this little post if for no other reason it will keep me from smoking till i catch my flight or stop me from going downstairs and eating some glace I'll regret tomorrow. Also did all of my practicing for the day.

Lets think of the 60s--what many will think as the pivitol time in modern jazz/modern society.

Now lets think about those (some who come to my mind, anyways) people who died in what some might call 'before there time." Not so sure of that idea since I'm into gentecs/theo/intevention/helio matrix patterns.

In no order of importance: they're all important.

Scott LaFarro, Booker Little, John Coltrane, the Kennedy's, Malcolm X, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King--and more I'm forgetting as I contemplate the horrors of a 14 hr plane ride and the re-acluturation--not to mention the jet lag going east.

The world and creative improvised music loosley, these days, known as jazz would be in a far better-and honest-place if these people had lived out their lives. Perhaps.

So today, or really since about 1979-1981, we have had or sorts of neo-this and neo-that and players who don't want anything to do with the tradition/linear development of jazz (actually quite short)

Every once and a while, someone will tell me about some new trpt player, so I'll check it out--usually on my space or some u-tube and I think to myself--very nice...but I can go right to the source of just about everything that I hear.

Now in Scott Laffaro's case, he died I think at 25, and just a couple of weeks after the Bill Evans Live at the VV recordings. And further, never touched the bass until he was about 17. i find that very interesting. Woody Shaw is a good example--at 19--his first "recording" (never attracted the ears of a recording co and wasn't "relaeased" until years later--a sad pattern that would haunt him to his dying day.) And Woody didn't touch a trpt untill he was 11; maybe a bugle or something like that before.

Now before the rath of the TH thunders its' mighty fury against me--I can tell you that a lot of guy's like me feel the same way--guy's my age and a bit older or a bit younger-I'm 52) And while, for reasons beyond the scope of this missive, I am not a well known public figure in the jazz world--a glance at my sites provided below willo show who my friends are and what they say about me--a I think giving me a bit of license to say:

There really is no 'testing ground' anymore for young players being judged, as was the case for me, by players such as Jounior Cook and Albert Daily and Tommy Turrentine.

It's about image..can you fill a very expensive room. And the little I keep up with what goes down in the US pretty much confirms that whoever these rich people who have the bread to go to a place like Dizzys-cocacola or places like that-they want entertainment--not from some seasoned pro (for the most part--there are notable exceptions-I am aware) they want some young kid to play faster, higher and louder...and lots of times not keeping with the changes of the tune.

Sure there are small joints in manhatten where you can sit in--but the people who are your 'judge' are not the father's of the music.

In some ways, things haven't changed that much--except a lot of trumpet players out there aspire to put out music that has a cursury reference to the tradition of the jazz trpt. and much more to an appeal to the masses at large--as can be seen by bookings at clubs in every major US city.

Funny, the guy's who I think play some of the most creative avant music can also play like KD, Freddie, and others who formed the modern jazz trumpet.

Reductively--can you play a highly credible solo on Giant Steps and Milestones (old version) and at various tempos??

Sure, do your thing: I do--but I can also do, and have done in public what I mention in the pentultimate paragraph. Hope you can to. Gotta catch a plane...but I will smoke and eat some glace..right downstairs!!

Best,

Mike

Dr. Michael A. Missiras
Professor of Music Emeritus
Minnesota State University
Teaching Fellow: Jazz Studies
Eastman School of Music
Visiting Professor of Media Studies
Utsunomiya University, Japan
www.myspace.com/mikemissiras
www.myspace.com/drmissirascornetproject

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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this whining coming from a Paris flat? What are we lamenting here anyway? The good old days where jazz musicians made a decent living? Give us all a break. Jazz clubs have not been commonplace, if they ever were, for close to 50 years. If you were black you couldn't even stay or eat in some of the hotels you played in. There are more jobs in jazz today than ever before but those jobs are in the schools and not living hand to mouth in some rag tag jazz club. Education is where the future is in instrumental music.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrumpetJoel wrote:
nevermind


Rosanne? Rosanne O'Danna? Is that you?
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Oncewasaplayer
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

I enjoyed hearing your cornet and trumpet playing on your myspace pages. Very nice!

I would agree with what Mike and Def Trumpet are saying. Today's market for music has dramatically reduced the venues for playing that once served as the practice rooms for jazz players.

Players in the '50s and '60s had the opportunity to play with the great innovators of bebop theory, plus the venues to develop as their own voices. What a learning experience that must have been.

During those years, there was also a viable market for jazz recordings. You could hear Ahmed Jamal ("Poinciana"), Stan Getz ("Girl from I."), and Dave Brubeck ("Take Five") on the pop radio stations.

In addition to jazz clubs around the country, colleges began to program jazz concerts as well. At the same time, opportunities in European clubs also increased.

Then in the '60s, change began that led to many changes. Public tastes changed as listeners embraced rock. Venues began to program music that drew the biggest audiences and booked less jazz. Jazz began to vanish from the radio, moving to specialized FM play, along with classical programming.

In the five decades since the sixties, things have changed. The record industry in general is befuddled about what their role is. Count the number of jazz clubs in the US.

Where does jazz thrive? I would say jazz is on life support in the colleges. Play in a big band in college? Lots of fun! How many big bands exist in your communities today? Play in a small jazz ensemble? Fun! Where can you book your own small group today in your communities? Options are limited.

How do the trumpet players of today stack up against the players of the '50 and '60s? Here's where I disagree with Mike.

I think there are plenty of talented players who would have held their own against the players of the golden age. We just have less opportunity to know their work today.

OK, long enough rant. I thank the TH for all your patience.
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