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JazzmanGIANT
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 Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
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BS, it is really time for you to stop trying to secretly judge me on a public forum. It is rude and unnecessary. EDIT HERE I am growing up faster than some people on here.
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The thing to judge in any jazz artist is, does the man project and does he have ideas. MilesDavis
"Always be heard - no matter the dynamics."-Mr Adolph Herseth
Yamaha Xeno RGS 2008
Bach Strad 1973
Olds Ambassador 1963
Laskey 65MC
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bs
Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 479
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| JazzmanGIANT wrote: | | BS, it is really time for you to stop trying to secretly judge me on a public forum. It is rude and unnecessary. You haven't heard me play 1 on 1 in over a year, so honestly, shut up unless you have something really true and productive to say to me. |
Grow up young man! I am most certainly not secretly judging you on this forum. I am expressing my experienced opinion, and by the way, I have heard you play many times at festivals, if you remember correctly, and am calling it as I hear it. For a 17 year old boy, you do not have all the answers. Listen to those older, wiser and more experienced on this board and you may learn something. All I am saying is true and productive and if you thought about it a bit, you might see that. Again I say grow up.
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Brent Sandy
Powell Signature Trumpet
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JazzmanGIANT
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Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Computer issue, didn't mean to post both posts.
_________________
The thing to judge in any jazz artist is, does the man project and does he have ideas. MilesDavis
"Always be heard - no matter the dynamics."-Mr Adolph Herseth
Yamaha Xeno RGS 2008
Bach Strad 1973
Olds Ambassador 1963
Laskey 65MC
Last edited by JazzmanGIANT on Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Could both of you please take any further discussion somewhere private and off of this board? It frankly isn't what anyone cares to read, and appears you (together) have had a relationship of some kind that has turned sour (student-teacher, judge-soloist, mentor-student)....we'd really prefer you work out your differences elsewhere.
Thank you.
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Folks, the reason I haven't responded in this thread until now is the due to the fact that Bill Bergren posted earlier.
There is no one correct way this is supposed to sound!!!!!
How it should sound is different for each person and at each stage of development. This is true of the leadpipe sound as much as it is true of the rest of the routine. Therefore, demonstrating only one sound for leadpipe playing (and please don't call it buzzing) would not be accurate.
Yes, there is absolutely a high level of commonality between the tone qualities of accomplished Adam students. However, one of the prime tenets of this method is that the teacher prescribes and demonstrates the ideal sound model for the student at each stage of development. As the student evolves the sound model evolves. Eventually the student has been guided on an evolutionary path that arrives at great trumpet playing and great tone.
Billy B is one of a relatively small number of people in the world that really knows how to do this. Pay attention.
And please, even if your intententions are good, please don't offer advice about this method if you don't understand it firsthand.
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Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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Billy B
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Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I may add that this common thread we speak of is not limited to Adam students or even trumpet players. If you know how to listen, this sound comes from Yo Yo Ma, Perlman, Bjorling. If you know how to listen you will hear a common thread between Doc, Maynard, Freddie, Gozzo, Clifford, Herseth, Andre, Robinson.
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mcgovnor
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: I |
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I like this thread. There is a common thread in the sound and timing, which is quite advanced, in the playing of Adam most students.
The notes respond and reach the tone and pitch center very quickly, very truly, and fundamentally correctly, regardless of conception. I do not hear this in, as a group, any other devotees, save the better Jacobs students.
I do not hear the Adam pitch and sound center in Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown, or Maynard. Herseth yes, however I believe that's his approach, and Jacobs influence. Adams routine(s) and concept obviously have a similar positive effect on his students. I've noticed this, for decades, sitting next to them and hearing them.
At any rate,
Great job on the leadpipe buzz thing, and on sticking too the principles and discipline. |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: |
How it should sound is different for each person and at each stage of development. This is true of the leadpipe sound as much as it is true of the rest of the routine. Therefore, demonstrating only one sound for leadpipe playing (and please don't call it buzzing) would not be accurate. |
I think I used the term with "buzz" to give some commonality of understanding to a very different way of thinking from most posts on this topic.....Pat is right in that we don't think of it or call it a "buzz". But, getting further into the actual terms used in my opinion just clouds the issue in a forum like this, and that was not my intent.
| PH wrote: |
Yes, there is absolutely a high level of commonality between the tone qualities of accomplished Adam students. However, one of the prime tenets of this method is that the teacher prescribes and demonstrates the ideal sound model for the student at each stage of development. As the student evolves the sound model evolves. Eventually the student has been guided on an evolutionary path that arrives at great trumpet playing and great tone.
Billy B is one of a relatively small number of people in the world that really knows how to do this. Pay attention.
And please, even if your intententions are good, please don't offer advice about this method if you don't understand it firsthand. |
Probably great advice on any subject. Certainly here.
Al
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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JazzmanGIANT
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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This is not to make Adam sound not important, but wouldn't there be a commonality without his teachings anyway? Or really any single teachers. Isn't the commonality resulting from a real control of the instrument and oneness with music/trumpet (which Adam is one of the many good ways to get there)?
I have a question also
I used to have a spare leadpipe laying around (I don't anymore). I play on a reversed leadpipe horn, which makes any leadpipe note really fuzzy. Is it even worth it to buzz the leadpipe on the longer pipe. It barely resonates, where I used to make the spare leadpipe buzz very smoothly.
_________________
The thing to judge in any jazz artist is, does the man project and does he have ideas. MilesDavis
"Always be heard - no matter the dynamics."-Mr Adolph Herseth
Yamaha Xeno RGS 2008
Bach Strad 1973
Olds Ambassador 1963
Laskey 65MC |
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roytrpt
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Posts: 343
Location: Mass.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that a reversed leadpipe should cause the sound to become "fuzzy" by virtue of its design. The pipe is simply longer. Mine (Bb trpt) resonates quite nicely at 10 cents above concert D. Maybe, try again? 
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JazzmanGIANT
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I try a lot. It definitely has no where near the sound quality. It barely resonates, let alone gets a nice buzz. Maybe thats just how my pipe is, cause I just used my old horn which has a regular pipe and sounds fine.
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The thing to judge in any jazz artist is, does the man project and does he have ideas. MilesDavis
"Always be heard - no matter the dynamics."-Mr Adolph Herseth
Yamaha Xeno RGS 2008
Bach Strad 1973
Olds Ambassador 1963
Laskey 65MC |
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healey.cj
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:15 am Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by healey.cj on Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| JazzmanGIANT wrote: | | This is not to make Adam sound not important, but wouldn't there be a commonality without his teachings anyway? Or really any single teachers. Isn't the commonality resulting from a real control of the instrument and oneness with music/trumpet (which Adam is one of the many good ways to get there)?.... |
Not necessarily. There are lots of players that are one with the music and the trumpet that do not have this quality to their sound. The sound we aspire to is rich in overtones and the full harmonic spectrum is balanced. It stems from playing in a way that is "in phase" with the physics of the trumpet.
It is easy to confuse the tone connected with a certain style of playing and a tone that is acoustically complete. Some of my favorite artists (with great style and creativity) do not have these acoustical qualities in their sound.
People who do have these qualities are not necessarily Adam students, but
Adam students do have this quality. Arturo, Doc, Thomas Hooten, Freddie (who took a few lessons with Adam but mostly studied with Herb Mueller) and Herseth didn't study with Adam but they have it. Botti, Hey, Brecker, Charlie Davis, and the rest of Adam's students (note apostrophe) have this quality regardless of musical style.
Lots of players I admire do not have these timbral qualities-including some of my favorites. Miles, Chet, Wynton (to cite just a few fine players) are one with the music and the instrument but do not have this timbral signature in their sounds.
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Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
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veery715
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
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Location: Ithaca NY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| healey.cj wrote: | | Quote: | | Maybe thats just how my pipe is, cause I just used my old horn which has a regular pipe and sounds fine. |
Are you trying to buzz it at the same pitch? Every lead pipe should resonate at one pitch or another. |
I think cj is correct here, JMG. If you are (subconciously, even) "trying" to hear the concert Eb, that will inhibit your ability to find the resonant pitch of the longer pipe. The Eb is not what counts, but rather locating the exact pitch at which the leadpipe resonates.
I measured the outside leadpipe lengths of some horns in my collection. They varied from 12.75 to 13.25 inches, with the longer ones being the reverse setup. I realize that the effective length is determined by the the internal length from mouthpiece shank end to pipe end, and that the outer length includes the receivers which also vary, so the variation in my numbers is only an approximate indication of the length differences.
Still, since it is the length of the tube which determines the resonant frequency (fundamental x 2), the exact pitch will vary from horn to horn. The goal is to let the setup dictate the frequency at which your lips coupled to the pipe produce the rich sound desired - every setup will have a different pitch, but there will be one.
veery |
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uglylips
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I took lessons with Bill Adam in the mid '90s. I can say that Mr. Adam's teachings have influenced my playing significantly.
When I play the leadpipe I focus on getting a consistent and solid core to my sound without any interruptions in the air stream. The pitch is an Eb concert.
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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The thing about the Adam approach that appeals the most to me is that the focus seems to be the sound quality first and foremost; of course the other popular approaches/methods out there also can lead to this same sound quality through years of work, but since Adam starts off with the idea of sound and approaches it in such a natural way, I find it seems to work the best for me so far.
I agree with PH and share the same observations; a resonant, pure sound is definitely one thing that is actually not a commonality amongst all musicians, despite their level of musicianship. It is only present in a few, and you can hear the difference; Maurice Murphy has it, and the late Luciano Pavarotti had it with his voice.
Clearly, this is something that is very difficult to teach on an internet forum without being able to hear the student's sound in person; but I always find that metaphors or simple ideas always lead me in the right direction. Sometimes hearing the simplest phrase can make monumental changes in my playing even without someone here in person to verify it. It just click in my head and I get an "aha" moment.
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Thread killer.
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kramergfy wrote: |
I agree with PH and share the same observations; a resonant, pure sound is definitely one thing that is actually not a commonality amongst all musicians, despite their level of musicianship. It is only present in a few, and you can hear the difference; Maurice Murphy has it, and Luciano Pavarotti has it with his voice.
Clearly, this is something that is very difficult to teach on an internet forum without being able to hear the student's sound in person; but I always find that metaphors or simple ideas always lead me in the right direction. Sometimes hearing the simplest phrase can make monumental changes in my playing even without someone here in person to verify it. It just click in my head and I get an "aha" moment. |
It sounds like a couple of the things I posted gave you one of those moments, which makes me very happy. Let's be honest, talking about music in person sometimes leads to misunderstandings. Doing it here in a typed forum can lead to greater issues, and certainly a wide variety of interpretations of what is said.
Pat evidently took offense to my use of the word "buzz" in my statement. The fact of it is that I really didn't want to get into many of the things in the way that Mr. Adam talks about them in a public forum, as his statements need to be understood that they are for each student and each individual and are not "one size fits all". They are very specific for each student, and as others have posted, they are very personal. I do not share most of what I learned from my time with Mr. Adam on here, because I honestly realize that what I type will be misunderstood. It isn't just the words, but rather the whole approach which needs to be understood. Too often, people get a very small part of a story and think they know the entire thing. The same can be said of lessons with Mr. Adam. While a lesson or three will help you as a player, those who have had the chance to study for longer periods of time with him have gained greater insight than those of us who studied with Mr. Adam for a lesser amount of time. Guys like Pat, Karl, Greg, and many others, have far more time in lessons with Mr. Adam than I. On the other hand, the areas that Mr. Adam addressed and assisted me with are likely different from those addressed in their lessons, so the method of approach Mr. Adam used for me was likely different than the approach he takes with others.
While a little information can be a dangerous thing, sometimes a slight correct of a statement can offer a little to a subject that otherwise would not be offered, and will at the same time keep many from making a wrong step. The method I mentioned in the placement of the mouthpiece and the creation of a tone with the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination was the method taught to me by Mr. Adam when I had some serious tension issues in my playing.
But, there are so many more things that just method and approaches, that putting it all up here would likely confuse more than help.
And, I too have learned a lot from other teachers beside Mr. Adam. Mr. Charles Gorham has helped me more with musical interpretation and understanding of the musical phrase more than anyone I have studied with, and others have given me gems and snippets that have made a great deal of difference in my playing.
Mr. Adam's personal approach is different from the others, and as such, is perfect for his approach to teaching the trumpet. A great teacher is one who can take any player and assist their growth and knowledge. All of the aforementioned teachers are that and more....
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Al, I did not target that comment to you. It seems that the term "leadpipe buzzing" is being widely used on the Internet and has found its way into this forum. Look at the title of this thread for one example!
I never heard Mr. Adam or any of his longterm students call it leadpipe buzzing. We call it leadpipe playing or blowing the pipe.
The words we use can unwittingly shape our concepts and thereby have an impact on our playing. Calling it leadpipe "buzzing" creates a mental image that I doubt that Mr. Adam would like.
I'm glad you are contributing here. I hope you are well.
Cheers!
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
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healey.cj
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by healey.cj on Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Al, I did not target that comment to you. It seems that the term "leadpipe buzzing" is being widely used on the Internet and has found its way into this forum. Look at the title of this thread for one example!
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Thanks Pat. I didn't know, so I figure when in doubt, figure you did something and try and clarify.
| Quote: |
I never heard Mr. Adam or any of his longterm students call it leadpipe buzzing. We call it leadpipe playing or blowing the pipe. |
Same here. I've seen a few students who even did leadpipe work in their cars on the way to Bloomington for a lesson. Looked back one day and saw Tiffany Carrico blowing the pipe in the car behind me!
| Quote: |
The words we use can unwittingly shape our concepts and thereby have an impact on our playing. Calling it leadpipe "buzzing" creates a mental image that I doubt that Mr. Adam would like.
I'm glad you are contributing here. I hope you are well.
Cheers! |
Thanks again, Pat. You know you have my utmost respect. Sorry I don't get down the road as often as I should to see you all. It's just become unbelievably hectic. Too many irons, just like you all.
Take care!
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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