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Miles Davis sharply criticized Freddie Hubbard in the 1970s?


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dualcitizen
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: Miles Davis sharply criticized Freddie Hubbard in the 1970s? Reply with quote

I came across the following sentence in Alex Henderson's review of Freddie Hubbard's Blues For Miles at allmusic.com:

Quote:
Given the way Miles Davis sharply criticized Freddie Hubbard in various magazine interviews in the 1970s


Does anyone know what specific magazine interviews are being referenced? I'm curious to learn more about the relationship between these two greats and would like to track down some more informations.

Thanks
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I haven't heard about that. Although I do know that Miles was
very critical of Chet Baker. I read both of their biographies and they
both alluded to it.
I'd be interested in the Freddie comments though. Always fun to hear
rivalries in competition.
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muchan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember reading Miles' interview somewhere, he saying kind of:
"My idol was Freddie. No, not Freddie Hubbard, but Freddie Webster"
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J. Crowley
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is anyone really that surprised? Miles was known for being critical and speaking his mind. I love me some freddie Hubbard, but he did get a bit lip-trill crazy from time to time.

Woody Shaw also criticized both Freddie Hubbard and Chick Corea's choice to go into fusion music, if memory serves Woody said something about being 'disappointed' by the two of them.

Back to Miles, I know when Miles couldn't do gigs in New York with his second quintet(herbie, wayne, ron, tony) he would send Freddie Hubbard to sub for him. Max, the owner of the vanguard says this in an interview on a Freddie Hubbard DVD.

Everyone has their own opinion, and these icons are human beigns too, and they change their minds from time to time.

Can you imagine what it would be like being quoted for everything you say?
Scary stuff.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know when Miles couldn't do gigs in New York with his second quintet(herbie, wayne, ron, tony) he would send Freddie Hubbard to sub for him.

That VSOP live album was amazing. I like Miles too, but I can't imagine him being able to even come close to the artistry Freddie exudes with those four.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
That VSOP live album was amazing. I like Miles too, but I can't imagine him being able to even come close to the artistry Freddie exudes with those four.


I'm not sure I agree with this statement...
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that you know my imagination well enough to make a judgment. Or maybe you meant that you can't tell when you agree or disagree with statements. Or maybe you don't like the VSOP album.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Miles said he'd rather hear Thad Jones play one wrong note than Freddy Hubbard play twelve right ones.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds like something he might say.
Actually, that's not too bad.
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PH
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know when Miles couldn't do gigs in New York with his second quintet(herbie, wayne, ron, tony) he would send Freddie Hubbard to sub for him.


Actually, that wasn't a situation where Miles sent Freddie to sub. This was a reunion band of the quintet and Miles wasn't playing that kind of music any more at that point so they got Freddie (and later Wynton) to cover the trumpet parts.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am convinced that the nature of artistry to rarely see eye-to-eye (ear-to-ear) with another artist. That does not imply contempt or a lack of respect. I have little doubt that there is more in common from one artist to the next in any genre, than is different; but it is the differences which distinguish one from another.

Those singular performers did their most eloquent speaking with their horns. What they said with words reminds us that they were humans too, more like us than different.

v


Last edited by veery715 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PH
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can not be overlooked or finessed. Miles and Freddie were brilliant jazz trumpeters. They also had two of the most enormous egos in the business.
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djpearlman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I as I have heard it, Miles was very impressed with young Freddie, and helped him get a contract with Blue Note Records. Later Miles commented that he felt Freddie needed a really strong band behind him to push him to play his best. I took that to mean Miles felt Freddie played very well indeed in the right circumstances...Miles could be prickly, but I think he was just honest about his evaluation of Freddie's strengths and weaknesses, as he saw them. We don't have to agree, but there is no reason to diss a master for expressing his own opinions. I imagine Freddie had some opinions of his own......
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J. Crowley
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH, I think you and I are talking about two different periods. I think you are talking about the VSOP band, with Freddie Hubbard, they put out a few CDs (allmusic says the first one was released in 1976). Later, Wallace Roney also played with this band(I say same band because they were playing the same music), not sure if it was still under the banner of 'VSOP'.

I am referencing an interview with Max Gordon, the old owner of the vanguard. He says when miles couldn't make gigs with his band in the 60's, Freddie would go play with them at the vanguard, but it was still Miles' Band. I know Miles was having some health problems at this point, so that would make sense.

If this ISN'T true, then Max Gordon is confused in the interview i saw. (which is on the freddie hubbard DVD with Cedar Walton, Ron Carter and Lenny White)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
It can not be overlooked or finessed. Miles and Freddie were brilliant jazz trumpeters. They also had two of the most enormous egos in the business.

Well.... they were TRUMPET players after all.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were both known for having very healthy self-image issues. When Freddie came to Oz in about 83 he played at the Basement in Sydney. The announced quoted Dizzy as saying that Freddie was one of the all time great trumpet players. Freddie waltzed out and corrected the announcer saying that he wasn't 'one' of the best and that he would prove it. I've got to say that he blew the place apart. Having said that, Miles would be one of my favourites after Clifford.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby Shew said of Freddie 20+ years ago... [my memory/paraphrasing] if there are pretty girls in the club, he's just going to show off. If there are well-known trumpeters in the house, he's going play great. He thrives on that competition.
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once saw a special on TV about Miles.

I'll try to get this right...

A band mate re-lived a time when Miles and him had just completed a set.

As Miles and him were walking off stage to take a break, a young boy (Trumpet player) ran up to Miles and said...

(paraphrased) "Mr. Davis...You sounded better than ever tonight!"

Miles response to the kid (in a very serious manner)...

(paraphrased) "How would you know?" as he walked away grinning at his band mate.

Kinda reminds me of the legendary feud between Chet and Wynton when Chet was asked about Wynton's playing and he POSSIBLY responded with something like...(paraphrased) "If I could play like him I wouldn't."

If any of these stories are true or not...it is fun to read and hear such interesting yet harmless stories...in fact, I would rather hear these stories than the sad ones regarding some of the great player's drug addiction etc.

After all, they are just people who have an extraordinary gift for playing a Trumpet.
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westview1900
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff wrote:
Bobby Shew said of Freddie 20+ years ago... [my memory/paraphrasing] if there are pretty girls in the club, he's just going to show off. If there are well-known trumpeters in the house, he's going play great. He thrives on that competition.


Just type A personalities behaving like type A personalities behave. It's like this throughout life and musicians are not immune from this.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Quote:
I know when Miles couldn't do gigs in New York with his second quintet(herbie, wayne, ron, tony) he would send Freddie Hubbard to sub for him.

That VSOP live album was amazing. I like Miles too, but I can't imagine him being able to even come close to the artistry Freddie exudes with those four.


Freddie is one my biggest heroes but this comment is pointless. Ask Wayne Shorter if you want an expert opinion, he said the same thing when asked after Freddie's death in Down Beat. Freddie is one of the baddest cats who ever picked up a trumpet, but Miles was beyond that. He had something that was magical and indescribable and he brought that out of everyone he played with--he was like a musical alchemist. He wasn't just a trumpet player or a jazz musician or a band leader, he was a true American icon.

crzytptman wrote:
I'm not sure that you know my imagination well enough to make a judgment. Or maybe you meant that you can't tell when you agree or disagree with statements. Or maybe you don't like the VSOP album.


He doesn't have to know a thing about your imagination or dislike the VSOP albums to disagree.
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