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So I Got This Horn...



 
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The Royal Lancer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: So I Got This Horn... Reply with quote

Without going into a long story, I was given a 1947 Olds Special. The horn is the vintage of Special that has the one-piece leadpipe/reciever. The horn also has braces that appear to have been shaped from sheet metal rather than the normal small posts used for bracing a horn.

The instrument is in excellent condition (no dents, dings or other signs of any trauma) with the exception of the remaining lacquer having become mottled and browninsh and the valves which are defintely worn to the point of needing to be done (lots of blow-by and they wobble in the casings).

I don't see these horns selling for too much on Ebay and other sites, but then I very rarely see a '47 like this one anywhere. I have been told these horns are rare and are great players. I'm not real impressed, but then the valves are shot.

So I'm thinking $350 for a valve job and possibly additional costs to either have all the lacquer removed (for the raw brass finish) or having it relacquered. My question to you, my learned listmates, is do you think that the horn is worth the investment? Look forward to your responses.

Cheers,
Jack
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Ed Lee
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at the list of horns you have, I'd say the answer of the question of a rehab is one of your own choice. Certainly, if the valves are so far gone, just to make it playable reliably, a valve job would be necessary. Beyond that, for optimum value I'd leave the finish as is.
Do consider the formulations of lacquer have changed through the years and a restoration of the finish would be instantly recognizable as also would be stripping to raw brass.
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you have a player? Maybe someone famous customized the braces, or maybe they are factory, but you don't say/know. Could be a collector's piece, so determine the horn's general history prior to your generous pal.

Considering your up-front out-lay ($0/gift) the valve rehab would: a. allow you to enjoy it, or at least truly see if it suits you, and b. someday market it or gift it knowing that you did right by everyone: your friend, yourself and the next owner.

One question only you can answer, and here's where I prob'ly have a fault in my technique, find out if you and Olds agree. I know only that for me the Olds line requires a different kind of engine behind the drivetrain.
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The Royal Lancer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The braces are factory and, as far as I know, were only done like that in that year as well as the leadpipe/reciever pipe. Cliff Blackburn mentioned at this year's ITG, when questioned, that the leadpipe/reciever was very good and the only reason Olds stopped using it so quickly is beacause it was so difficult to manufacture.

Personally, I have never been a real Olds enthusiast. I have played almost every model that they made because my private lesson instructor is a huge Olds fan and has owned most of them.

The only comments I have ever heard/read regarding this model is that it 'plays loud', which is something that I certainly don't need any help with.

Thanks,
Jack
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veery715
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried Hetman's #3 valve oil which is especially formulated for worn pistons? If might give you a glimpse of what a valve overhaul would do - playingwise.

You can strip the lacquer easily yourself. Do a search on "lacquer stripping" and read the options. It will need to go before a relacquer anyway, and you will have a nice raw brass horn you can polish while you rest your chops.

veery
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cleanhead77@embarqmail
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had one of those Specials with the one piece leadpipe/receiver and it had fairly tight valves. It played well, but if you'll excuse the pun it wasn't anything special. With redone valves it might be worth as much as $350.00.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the Olds play different that your Reynolds horns (which I see you have a few of). I know that they had a merging in the sixties, but I'm not sure if that consolidated their products or not.

In any case, yours are all of a vintage prior to that. I'm just curious about your thoughts.

I'd say my Old Ambassador has a fairly standard blow - maybe tighter than some of the freer horns I've played, but less tight than others. Very middle of the road.
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The Royal Lancer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Reynolds are probably the best horns I have ever played. You can view two of them on the Contempora Corner. I would say that those horns play more compactly and handle better than the Olds (IMHO). It's really hard to describe the differences in words, but I prefer them to the Olds models I have tried. The closest Olds model would be the Super.

I generally prefer vintage horns over the more modern horns available, although as you can see in my signature block I own several very fine modern instruments.

I just keep wrestling with whether or not to invest in this instrument or sell it short because of the valves. In reading up on the horn, I have found that it was one of Olds' less expensive models even though the purists will tell you that they didn't build any student models until they introduced the Ambassador (which was designed for them by Foster Reynolds).

Regards,
Jack
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The Royal Lancer
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still looking for replys from the Olds devotees.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the idea of putting heavier oil on the valves and seeing what it blows like. If the Hetman's isn't enough, maybe a little 3 in 1.

I'd check Anderson's. I imagine they are not $350.

I do like the way the Olds horns blow, but then that is just my opinion. I've never played a Special before.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion would be get the valve job,you will be happy.
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that an all yellow brass LA Special...?

The Fullerton Specials went to nickel outer slide tubes and standard type mouthpiece receivers....but maybe some LA Specials went to that change also.

The point I am making is that only a few of the many Olds models were all yellow brass horns...the 1940s LA Specials being one of them..the others being the Ambassador and the Mendez...some players may have Olds horns that are exceptions to this...but for the most part I think this is the case.

Yellow brass horns (without nickel slides) are considered by several custom builders to have there own playing characteristics. Going back to the 1940s..the Chicago Benge (with the exception of some war era horns), and French Bessons were all yellow brass. One reason many players like the sound of the vintage Ambassadors is the all yellow brass construction.

The LA Special that I had was stamped with the last three digits of the serial number on all the valve slides. Most of the Olds models have nickel outer or inner slides, plus a variety of other alloys, and tuning triggers or kickers. The Special has none of these features...but the all yellow brass LA horns are unique.

When you pull the valves out of many vintage horns they appear to be badly worn...but brass oxidation from the valve casings builds up on the pistons, and appears to be plating that has worn off the pistons, but it is not. You can polish the pistons by hand using #0000 steel wool (only #0000 !) to remove this oxidation..then clean everthing up in the kitchen sink with liquid dish soap and a toothbrush. This will leave a nice surface for the specialty heavier valve oils. If your valves wobble that will need to be corrected with an appropriate valve rebuild...but the clean up first is pretty cheap.

You should not be concerned with keeping the original lacquer on the horn. This is only important to collectors who look for a horn that has not been overhauled by a gorilla.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd encourage you to consider getting an ultrasonic cleaning. It can really clean up valves that seem worn or corroded, but may simply have a build up of deposits. You may end up not needing any work done. It may also improve your opinion on the appearance.

Repair people usually end up cleaning it beforehand, so if it does end up needing work after this, it will just eliminate the need (and cost) of that step.

I had this done to my Olds Ambassador, and it went from a completely ugly, moderately well playing instrument, to a good playing horn with a less than new - but still nice - appearance.
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The Royal Lancer
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information. It is a '47 and is all yellow brass without any nickel trim to speak of (a couple of small furrels in nickel). The slides all fit and move smoothly. I looked on Olds Central and there is a .pdf of the original factory booklet and Guarantee from a '47 Special. Coincidentally, the serial number shown is only 90 off from my horn. And they're right, the lacquer didn't last forever.

The horn has had an ultrasonic cleaning and I have used the heavy weight oils (e.g., Hettman's #3) on the valves. They do wobble in the casings so I believe that a valve job is required.

What I was looking for were any testimonials out there from people owning/playing one of these saying that it is really a good horn and well worth the investment to fix it up. My inclanation is to do it but as you all know the costs for restoration continue to go up. Charlie Melk (who has done a couple wonderful restorations for me) is now $650 for lacquer and $350 for valves for a total of $1000 dollars for a horn that may only bring $800 at auction. I know there are others that will do it for less, but you get my drift. I just wanted to hear it would be worth the effort.

I am still interested in hearing from others if they have any additonal insigts. I appreciate all the input.

Jack
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Royal Lancer wrote:

The horn has had an ultrasonic cleaning and I have used the heavy weight oils (e.g., Hettman's #3) on the valves. They do wobble in the casings so I believe that a valve job is required.


My valves wobble in the casing and Charlie went through a long explanation about why they didn't need rebuilding. While yours perhaps do, I wouldn't necessarily accept that as foregone at this point.

The Royal Lancer continued wrote:
Charlie Melk (who has done a couple wonderful restorations for me) is now $650 for lacquer and $350 for valves for a total of $1000 dollars for a horn that may only bring $800 at auction.


You haven't checked the prices lately... restoration in lacquer is now up to $750.

If you love it and you want to keep it forever, have it redone. If you're not sure, wait.

Then again, I restore $56 Buescher Aristocrats, so what do I know?

Tom
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One fine point from the discussion above is that trumpets are becoming more and more like other sub-$1000 appliances: fixing them is often more expensive than buying a used specimen in reasonably good condition.
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missmybaby
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

$750 for stripping old lacquer and a new lacquer coat? Only if the dude has a serious trophy wife he needs to maintain.
I think I'd just live with ugly lacquer, wow!
People really pay that?!!!! New silver plate can be had for $250 to $500 dependng on where you send the horn.

If Charlie keeps charging that, he may not be so busy...
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, treating trumpets like those stupid disposable appliances only encourages the manufacture of more products that are so easily dismissed.

Well, maybe not with trumpets. Maybe.

All I know is my DVD players keep getting cheaper, dying quicker, and made with progressively less quality. Comparing them to electronic components built in the 80's or early 90's - and certainly before that - is a joke.

I'm pretty sure the stereo system I bought at a garage sale this fall for $20 (awesome deal!) is better than most things you'd find at Best Buy or Audio King today. It's not built with cardboard and plastic. It may not have 7 channels or video inputs or twenty connections or a remote that's the size of a small shoe but it will still be working when most of those others are in the trash and actually sound good in two channels. All the rest of that is bogus (mostly).

Oops. I diverted this thread. My apologizes. Please ignore all that.
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mulligan stew
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Royal, I have two '47 Specials. The first I got a few years back from, I believe, Rogers Brass (see his post above)--it has a modified bell and a few other custom touches. It's an excellent trumpet and immediately became my main horn. Among other assets it has an amazing upper register but never feels tight or restricted and has a nice fat lower end too.

I liked it so much I sought out another '47, but completely original, as I wanted to see what it played like. It has an equally easy high register, is a little lighter, and has slightly looser slots (which I like).

In short, these are fantastic trumpets. I've played everything from Bachs to Schilkes to Yamahas to Harrelsons to Wild Things to many other vintage Olds and Conn horns, and these are currently my favorite. They do exactly what I need them to do.

I suspect there's something about these unusual leadpipes that makes them play the way they do, but be warned--any damage to the "receiver" and you're out of luck. I had to find a replacement original leadpipe for one of these horns (donated to me by a kind soul right here on TH!)--you can't just swap out a new receiver.

PS...so in all, I'd say fix it up, if you like the way it plays enough now. Chris Cromer at A Minor Tune-up did some work on one of mine, including an ultrasonic cleaning, and it was well worth the money (far less than $600 or $700, by the way). I'd just go raw brass--no need for new lacquer.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

missmybaby wrote:
$750 for stripping old lacquer and a new lacquer coat? Only if the dude has a serious trophy wife he needs to maintain.
I think I'd just live with ugly lacquer, wow!
People really pay that?!!!! New silver plate can be had for $250 to $500 dependng on where you send the horn.

If Charlie keeps charging that, he may not be so busy...


As I mentioned in a separate thread, that $750 is for a lot more than new lacquer. It includes taking out all of the dents (you'll never know they were there), cleaning, polishing (mostly by hand, I bet, I'll have to ask), precision valve alignment, setting the gap if necessary, springs and corks (ok, those are cheap), and anything else it needs (not including part prices).

He's not out of line with other guys offering full restorations, like Dr Valve and Osmun.

Tom
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