| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Brent
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: St. Paul, MN
|
 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: Miles |
 |
|
Miles said a number of things in his autobiography I have difficulty believing, such as:
Fats Navarro didn't know anything about chords, or Fats "couldn't play ballads for s@#t."
If you read what others said about Fats and Miles at Minton's, it was no contest:
"Fats ate Miles up every night. Miles couldn't outswing him, he couldn't outpower him, he couldn't outsweet him, he couldn't do anything except take that whipping on every tune." (Saxophonist, Jimmy Health, commenting on jam session encounters at Minton's between Fats and Miles Davis)
_________________
Brent
Last edited by Brent on Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Scorpion
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 1960
Location: hell
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | I'm not sure that you know my imagination well enough to make a judgment. Or maybe you meant that you can't tell when you agree or disagree with statements. Or maybe you don't like the VSOP album. |
Chill out, bro. I never said I know your imagination, I just said I disagree with your statement.
_________________
-GET OVER HERE!
-1964 Olds Super Balanced Depleted Uranium single flue Harpoon (w/custom coprion hand guard i got from a 1925 Conn Erradicator.) Akright converted handle w/calfskin grip (143xx) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 990
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good point Brent. Fats Navarro was actually desired by certain singers and he could play ballads and his bebop playing actually fits the changes rather well. If not he would not have been someone that Dizzy Gillespie would have emulated and used as guide in his playing nor would he have played with him.
As far as the initial poster is concerned.
No one today should really be surprised that Miles Davis criticized something.
_________________
🎺 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ConnArtist
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2833
Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shaft wrote: | As far as the initial poster is concerned.
No one today should really be surprised that Miles Davis criticized something. |
I doubt OP or anyone else in this thread is surprised. Sounds like OP would just like some primary documents to learn more about the rivalry. Or maybe even call BS on an overly simple statement they read. Some of the lines shared earlier in this thread could be read many different ways...
It's all good though. Like many have said... everybody's entitle to their own opinion! Sometimes it seems to me like Miles would just talk trash because he thought the question was too obnoxious to receive a legitimate response. I would have been terrified to open my mouth around that man, let alone be charged with the task of interviewing him!
_________________
"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn  )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | He doesn't have to know a thing about your imagination or dislike the VSOP albums to disagree. |
| Quote: | | Chill out, bro. I never said I know your imagination, I just said I disagree with your statement. |
You guys are funny. My statement was about my imagination. And the VSOP album. Scorpion didn't specify what he didn't agree with. In fact, he said he wasn't sure what he agreed with. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to help him figure it out . . .
I do agree with:
| Quote: | | Freddie is one of the baddest cats who ever picked up a trumpet, but Miles was beyond that. He had something that was magical and indescribable and he brought that out of everyone he played with--he was like a musical alchemist. He wasn't just a trumpet player or a jazz musician or a band leader, he was a true American icon. |
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tommy t.
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002
Posts: 2599
Location: Wasatch Mountains
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Miles |
|
|
| Brent wrote: | Miles said a number of things in his autobiography I have difficulty believing, such as:
Fats Navarro didn't know anything about chords, or Fats "couldn't play ballads for s@#t."
If you read what others said about Fats and Miles at Minton's, it was no contest:
"Fats ate Miles up every night. Miles couldn't outswing him, he couldn't outpower him, he couldn't outsweet him, he couldn't do anything except take that whipping on every tune." (Saxophonist, Jimmy Health, commenting on jam session encounters at Minton's between Fats and Miles Davis) |
Fats died in 1950. Miles was recording Birth of the Cool during 1950. I think that Miles really came into his own well after that, say during the Prestige years, and didn't really show what an incredibly diverse player he was and how far he would ultimately go with his music until, I don't know, maybe Aura. A comment on how he was standing up in cutting sessions with Fats doesn't have much meaning.
I sat with Jimmy Heath on the NYC/Boston shuttle once in the late 90s and we talked quite a bit about Miles. I don't suppose that anybody in the business liked everything about Miles all the time, but Jimmy cleary recognized him as one of the greatest jazz performers and innovators in the history of the music.
Tommy T.
_________________
Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brent
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: St. Paul, MN
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: Miles |
|
|
I have no doubt that Jimmy Heath recognized Miles for his achievements. I'm just pointing out that Miles often said things I would question.
I'd agree 100% with you Tommy, on Miles' development.
_________________
Brent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm a big Freddie fan. I'm a big Miles fan.
Miles was very supportive of Freddie in NY in the early sixties. I've seen Freddie allude to that in interviews.
I think we all need to remember that we're talking about artistic egos here, AND we're talking about events that span decades.
Most of the critical remarks that I've read over the years tend to be about musical direction and genre, or personality, NOT playing ability. I think anyone familiar with Hubbard knows he could be a hot dog, and we all know about the mid-70's columbia albums.... If you read carefully and in context, most of the negative Hubbard quotes have to do with these issues. I've NEVER read a statement by any trumpet player criticizing Freddie's playing ability.
And hey Crzytpt: I love the VSOP albums and I think Freddie does a great job on them, but if you can't imagine Miles handling them as well, then Columbia records has a couple of box sets for you:
-the Miles Davis Quintet
-Miles Davis Live at the Plugged Nickel
keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Heard 'em - before they were "box sets"! I never said Miles didn't hang with them. I like Miles playing, but Freddie's style speaks to me more. In my imagination! It is art, after all.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | Heard 'em - before they were "box sets"! I never said Miles didn't hang with them. I like Miles playing, but Freddie's style speaks to me more. In my imagination! It is art, after all. |
To be fair, here's what you said:
"That VSOP live album was amazing. I like Miles too, but I can't imagine him being able to even come close to the artistry Freddie exudes with those four.
_________________
Crazy Nate "
There's a big difference between "...speaks to me..." and "...being able to even come close to the artistry..."
keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
What's fair about that?
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Miketpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 563
Location: Seattle, Washington USA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
I still love the John McNeil book that has a picture of Sandoval playing into a mirror. Caption "Arturo Sandoval and his favorite trumpet player..." or something like that.
Mike |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's probably why he made the "Trumpet Evolution" album.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | What's fair about that? |
I was just trying to explain why I felt the need to respond originally. If you had originally said "I just happen to like Freddie more..." or something, I would have never responded about the 'Plugged Nickel' box. I was just trying to explain myself, based on your original comment. That's all....
keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
b-horn
New Member
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 4
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I would temper this discussion by saying don't take these sort of hearsay things too seriously. Even if it were true, there's so many layers to someone criticizing someone else that its impossible to know the truth. And opinions often change depending on when they're said, particularly with people that have had such long careers in the spotlight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazz_trpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001
Posts: 5734
Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Miles |
|
|
| Brent wrote: | | "Fats ate Miles up every night. Miles couldn't outswing him, he couldn't outpower him, he couldn't outsweet him, he couldn't do anything except take that whipping on every tune." (Saxophonist, Jimmy Health, commenting on jam session encounters at Minton's between Fats and Miles Davis) |
I don't doubt this. Fats was a superior technician, and I suspect that during the period in question, Miles was still very young and finding his voice.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazz_trpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001
Posts: 5734
Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khedger wrote: | And hey Crzytpt: I love the VSOP albums and I think Freddie does a great job on them, but if you can't imagine Miles handling them as well, then Columbia records has a couple of box sets for you:
-the Miles Davis Quintet
-Miles Davis Live at the Plugged Nickel
keith |
I don't find Miles' playing on the Plugged Nickel discs to be anywhere near his best playing...
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brent
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: St. Paul, MN
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: Miles |
|
|
"I don't find Miles' playing on the Plugged Nickel discs to be anywhere near his best playing..."
I agree. If I recall, I think he had some ongoing medical issues, and had laid off the horn for some time before that engagement.
The rest of the band was incredible, though, especially Tony Williams.
Brent
_________________
Brent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazz_trpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001
Posts: 5734
Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Miles |
|
|
| Brent wrote: | I agree. If I recall, I think he had some ongoing medical issues, and had laid off the horn for some time before that engagement.
The rest of the band was incredible, though, especially Tony Williams. |
Right -- IIRC, Miles was in the hospital for some time (car accident? I'd have to go look it up...) and this was very shortly after he got out, and his chops were in terrible shape.
Hard enough to keep up with that band when your chops are in order...
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BrassPapa
New Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2024
Posts: 5
Location: New York, NY
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Shaft wrote: | Good point Brent. Fats Navarro was actually desired by certain singers and he could play ballads and his bebop playing actually fits the changes rather well. If not he would not have been someone that Dizzy Gillespie would have emulated and used as guide in his playing nor would he have played with him.
As far as the initial poster is concerned.
No one today should really be surprised that Miles Davis criticized something. |
Gotta correct you on one thing: Dizzy didn’t emulate Fats nor did he use Fat’s playing as a guide. It was the other way around. Fats’s style was influenced by elements of Dizzy and Howard McGhee. He learned from his elders and forged a powerful voice all his own, even adding some things that neither Diz nor McGhee had in their playing.
What you did get right is Dizzy certainly did think highly of Fats enough to play with him. In fact he recommended Fats as his replacement in Billy Eckstine’s band. And Dizzy was quoted as saying something along the lines of “Fats was the best all around trumpet player of us all”.
But yeah Diz was the father, Fats was the son who made the father mighty proud.
_________________
1941 Conn 48B Vocabell trumpet
1950 something Conn Coprion cornet
1961 Conn 38B Connstellation trumpet
1970 Olds Recording trumpet
1973 Olds Ambassador trumpet (customized) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
