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Are all flugelhorns out of tune?


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artbell
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? Reply with quote

I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks!
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intonation can be very tricky on a flugelhorn. There is a school of thought that you cannot adequately tune a flugelhorn with the main tuning mechanism (the leader pipe), that you have to adjust each valve slide also. Ron Miles talks about this in an article at http://jazztimes.com/articles/20281-clark-terry-terence-blanchard-ron-miles-doc-cheatham-brass-fantasy
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working on a new king flugel right now...
I would say that it plays pretty nice and sounds good.
The low D is perfectly in tune with the 3rs slide all the way in! that's weird.
BUT, the Eb (2-3) right next to it is only a little flat, so that area is not too bad.
The low C is right on the money, lots of flugels are flat there. So that is nice too.
The 3rd space C is about 15 cents sharp, and it locks in pretty good, which makes you want to pull the main slide out a little, and then the whole horn goes flat. If you can get used to holding that C down, just about like a C trumpet, the horn works great. The 4th space E and Eb are good, as well as the D right next to them. The upper G is good too, and the A.
SO the worst note is "tuning note C"

I like the way it feels. It responds better with a longer throat mouthpiece, but the upper register above high C is better with a shorter throat mouthpiece.
It takes a yamaha shank by the way, or at least works good with a yamaha shank.
I'm pulling the main slide out about a full inch, and The other slides are all the way in. 1-2 combinations are all good, and 2-3 are either good or flat. Dont pull that 3rd slide!

Doug M
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tjeffries
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that was true- generally they tend to be sharp in the low register, flat in the high register. However, my Hub van Laar flugel is one of the most in-tune instruments I've ever played, so it is possible to make them work.
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Hzinno
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject: Flugel Reply with quote

I play a Scodwell Flugel that has a tuning slide in addition to the leadpipe tuning. Plays wonderfully in tune.
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swingshift
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a really old couesnon which is fine except my low c#...everything else is fine....
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear, all instruments in the trumpet family have imperfect intonation. To play in tune we must continuously compensate with the lip and slides. I don't know if the flugel is any worse than the Bb but it seems to me that I'm more conscious of the need to adjust when playing the flugel. Now the picc...don't get me started.
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oliver king
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
To be clear, all instruments in the trumpet family have imperfect intonation. To play in tune we must continuously compensate with the lip and slides. I don't know if the flugel is any worse than the Bb but it seems to me that I'm more conscious of the need to adjust when playing the flugel .....


+1
I recognize if I am going to double, I need to pay particular attention to the flugel and practice it as much as and in the same way as the trumpet.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
all instruments in the trumpet family

I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba?
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Last edited by crzytptman on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought...

I wonder if deep cup flugel mpc is a bigger part of the story than slide lengths, etc.

When I started playing a deep (Yamaha E-cup) mpc on my trumpet, intonation was all over the place, and I was disappointed that I found a mpc with perfect timbre, but horrid intonation. Then, within a couple weeks, intonation on the trumpet was spot on, and I was not even *consciously* compensating.

If one does not routinely play flugel and/or deep mouthpiece, perhaps the poor intonation on the flugel is really just inexperience/poor technique??

I have not had major intonation issues with either my old Belgian Flugel, or my FrankenFlugel, other than one or two notes (and just about all of the "trumpet family" have one or two funky notes).
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mcahynuacrkd
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Quote:
all instruments in the trumpet family

I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba?

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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? Reply with quote

artbell wrote:
I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks!


Mine is NEVER out of tune....Of course I never play with any other instruments which makes it easier....
"So, I got that goin' for me.....Which is nice". Carl Spackler


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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Quote:
all instruments in the trumpet family

I thought the flugel was in the tuba family. Isn't it just a piccolo tuba?


Piccolo tuba? Hmm... interesting.

Well, trumpets are cylindrical bore instruments - meaning that the bore size remains mostly constant (the same) through most of the instrument until you reach the bell. If you take a tuning slide you should be able to flip it and fit it back upside down (unless it's an over/under design). Trombones are the other primary brass instrument which is also cylindrical bore.

Flugelhorns are conical bore instruments - meaning that the bore size increases throughout the instrument. There are many conical bore instruments in the brass family - cornets, flugels, horns (as in french horns), euphoniums, and tubas.

So, I suppose, in a way you're sort of correct.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: y Reply with quote

Yes
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? Reply with quote

artbell wrote:
I know this sounds like an ignorant question, and may be, but I had a new King flugelhorn that was just plain flat (or sharp) on some scale notes, and I had to lip them up or down like crazy to prevent really bad harmonies. My bad or in the nature of the flugelhorn? Thanks!


I own a Kanstul Chicago 1025 flugel and it is at least as in tune as the typical Bb trumpet made today. I have played their 1525 flugel and didn't find any intonation issues.

Flip Oakes' flugel is very much in tune, as well. It is Kanstul-made to Flip's specifications

Getzen asked Byron Autrey to help solve the intonation issues they were having with a new flugel model, sometime back. He found the error in the bell branch taper. When that was corrected, the horn played with good intonation.

Knowlege of flugel building has grown lately (the last forty years or so) and we benefit from the advances when we buy a new horn. The vintage ones...?

Brian
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TheLawTalkingGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I have played their 1525 flugel and didn't find any intonation issues.


Agreed. I am by no means an accomplished player, but my Kanstul 1525 doesn't seem to have any tuning issues - hardly need to trigger the C# & D at all.
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djpearlman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same goes for the Scodwell flugel. I removed the third valve trigger from mine, it was unnecessary...
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rank_amateur
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Are all flugelhorns out of tune? Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I own a Kanstul Chicago 1025 flugel and it is at least as in tune as the typical Bb trumpet made today...


I too own a 1025 and I agree with you - mostly. Certainly in the common flugel range my 1025 is just as in tune as my Lawler Bb and much better in tune than my King C. However above the staff (where I rarely go on flugel anyway), it does have a tendency to go a bit flat - especially from high c on up.
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Matthew Anklan
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Yamaha flugel, plays as much in tune as my Bb. I have noticed, however, that a lot of people have a tendency to pull their tuning slide out TOO far on the flugel. That would obviously cause some issues.
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Scodwell flugel is incredibly in tune!

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