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air escaping out of my nose



 
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trumpetgeek234
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Joined: 08 Dec 2001
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
I am having some trouble with air escaping from my nose. For example if I play very long or very high air starts leaking out my nose and hinders me playing. For example when I am playing high F air starts coming out my nose and the tone drops to high D. That is, because I loose air pressure to play that high.
Does anyone have the same problem? Ever heard of it? What can I do against it?

The only thing that is for sure is, that it doesnt have anything to do with the way I play, because air also starts leaking out when I talk very long or very loud.

I would really appreciate some help, because this air thing hinders me from playing high. Since I start to put mouthpiece pressure against the air escaping, it makes my playing even worse.

thx
PB
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Welk
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Joined: 04 Jan 2002
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Location: Montreal,Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the 1st time i hear about that problem...I have seen and had a lot of problem but air escaping from the nose isnt known from me. The only solution i think about may sound a bit stupid but may help. It would be to use something to block your nose but that involve that you inhall by your mouth if you used to inhall by your nose. But it is just a crazy idea that had blowed out of my brain. Tell me if it work. If you find a solution tell it also, i really like to know how to counter attack trumpet problem!
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OCTA-C
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Joined: 29 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same problem happen to me twice. Both times were during playing marathons. We had to do seven 45min. shows all in a row with the token 15min. break in between. By the last set I was literally blowing out of my sinuses. What happened was that my lips finally gave out or slightly spasmed and the air had no place to go but out my nose. Its a scary and helpless feeling you get when this happens. The lip muscles tense and won't vibrate, the tongue lifts and slightly swells, and the air you,re expelling has no place to go but up and out the back of your throat, through your sinuses and out your nose!

The only thing you can really do is to take a rest and have a little water to replenish or rehydrate the muscles and tissues in your mouth and throat. If you play too high, too loud, for too long, your body will tell you.

Hope this helps?! (FWIW)
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

......the question.....

Does anyone have the same problem? Ever heard of it? What can I do against it?

...yes I'v eseen it on numerous occasions and ALL the people who had it got rid of it in time.

I'm not able to go very well into physiology but....(I will check on this and get back to you!)....ther's some valve like mechanism at the back of the throat which you need to be more conscious of and close it off...you can practice this off the horn first. Then make sure you take a bigger breath but play your note a little less loud/in focus/concentrated tonal core...try this for a while let us know if it helps/hinders...I will try to find out the physiology a bit more unless one of our experienced readers has this info to hand!!!


Trying to help!!...rgds.
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...some other things to think about.....

1. Tongue arch too high (try aaaaaa instead of eeee)

2. Tonsils removed?..a common prob. after surgery!

3. UPPP for sleep apnea?

this was taken from pg.9 Trumpet FAQ's by Pops McLaughlin.....

http://www.bbtrumpet.com/



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[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii<O on 2002-01-07 07:16 ]
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dales
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this problem when I was 19 years old. I was nearly two years off pharyngeal pouches surgery related to a trumpet playing injury, and here I was again, still not having mastered relaxed breathing, blowing myself out a second time.

I had plastic surgery that moved my soft palate back in my throat and went through the whole layoff/recovery thing again. When I resumed playing, I lost air out of my nose every time I played. So I quit for 22 years. Now, five months back and taking lessons, I haven't had a problem with my air seal, and I've exceeded my past peak after thinking for years that it was impossible for me to play. I still don't know if I actually needed that second surgery (although I surely needed the first)

Because you lose your air seal in other situations, you may have a non-playing issue, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the way you play. If you're losing it only in the high range, maybe those notes just aren't there for you yet. Man, don't force. Excessive force did me in. Twice.

I had my tonsils out when I was 12, and I was never much of a swimmer when I was younger--it seemed like I was always getting water in my nose. I used to have sleep apnea, too, but when I took up running a few years ago it went away.

I've heard of a few pharyngeal pouches surgeries (Randy Sandke is the best known) and some soft palate surgeries, but I'm the only two-time trumpet-related surgery "loser" I've ever heard of. But--after all this time, I can play again. Sounds like you can, too, but don't force, and make sure you've got a good private trumpet teacher. If you don't, this problem alone assures that you need one.

[ This Message was edited by: dales on 2002-01-11 11:22 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dales on 2002-01-11 11:34 ]
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My exwife (a sax player) had this problem when she had her tonsils/adnoids out. It went away with time and conscious practice.

Good luck!
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mistrad37
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you have to much back pressure which is causing you lungs to push air any place it can. Try experimenting with a larger cup on a mouthpiece and see if it helps. Also try to close off everything in your mouth and throat except for the direct air stream in your thought. You will have to do this psychosymatically, because I don't think that anyone can really explain how to do it.
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trumpetgeek234
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx for all your response!!
I still have a question:
what exactly is backpressure?
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-01-21 16:54, trumpetgeek234 wrote:
Thanx for all your response!!
I still have a question:
what exactly is backpressure?


"Backpressure" has no exact definition. Most players would say it's that feeling of "stuffiness" when one plays but it feels like you can't get all the air through the horn that you want to.

Causes of excessive backpressure:

1) Too small of a mouthpiece throat. The #27 "standard" size throat is actually quite restrictive. Back in the old days, a typical throat size was a #20 or a #22.

2) Too small of a bore-sized horn.

3) Valves not perfectly aligned. And/or the player not pushing the valves all the way down and/or pushing them down just a little when they are playing a note where the valve is supposed to be all the way up.

4) Most likely: Improper playing. As in trying to force notes higher and or louder than you or your equipment (see above 3 points) can handle. Arching your tongue into the back of your mouth ("closing off the throat") contributes to a feeling of "backpressure" and can CERTAINLY cause the "air-through-the-nose" problem you are having.

When you play higher notes, you must arch your tongue up and FORWARD in your mouth, as in when you say the word "sea". This has the same effect as a nozzle on the end of a garden hose, forcing the water out at far higher velocity. The tongue must not arch up into the back of the mouth. When arched improperly, the effect is the same as pinching on a garden hose an inch or two before that nozzle. In this case, the water would just dribble out. We don't want our air to just "dribble out" (or in your case, leak out through the next available exit - your nose!).

Now, you know the cause, but that is only the beginning of the battle! To get over this problem, you've got to quit trying to play as high as you can, or "see how high you can play today". "Testing one's range over and over is the quickest path to failure." If this problem begins around a D, then you must NEVER play that high (for now). Limit your range to a B below that D. Chasing range is like chasing a butterfly. You won't catch it! Leave it alone, relax, work on the other many facets of your playing, and like that butterfly, the upper register will come and "rest upon your shoulder" one day.

Another (less esoteric) way of explaining this is to make high notes and upper range a low priority. As you develop, you will notice that all of a sudden what seemed difficult a month or two ago now is easy to play. And what was impossible, is now just "difficult". Understand?

Basically, the most important attribute you need right now is self-discipline. You are doing something wrong in your attempts to play your extreme high register. You've developed some sort of bad habit (probably the tongue arch problem I noted earlier). If you keep trying over and over to hit those notes, and the air keeps coming out of your nose, then you are just reinforcing that bad habit. Doing this is no different then practicing some difficult fingering pattern just a bit too quickly, missing and stumbling around every time, and then wondering why you can't learn the fingering pattern (though that's just what many or even most players do)!

My recommendation (I'm assuming you've been playing for at least 2 years):

Spend 5 - 10 minutes a day doing flexibilities from the Irons book or the Smith book or the Colin book as your first routine. And don't play these any higher than what is comfortable for you right now! Think about your tongue movement as you play these. It is the tongue level that changes the notes.

Make your second routine of the day Clarke's Technical Study #1. Single-tongue it with only one repeat on each exercise, and ONLY up to as high as you can comfortably go.

For the Third Routine of the day, do the Part 1 and Part 2 exercises from Lesson 2 in Claude Gordon's "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice" book. In the Part 1 exercises, you must follow the instructions and hold each last note "as long as you have air and longer". Try to actually crescendo as you run completely out of air. This is to build up the blowing muscles (which you will need for high notes later).

In the Part 2 exercises, play the last note of each exercise with only a short (3 or 4 beats) hold with a slight crescendo. And in your case, don't go up "as far as you can". Only go up to whatever note is about 2 steps BELOW where your "air-through-the-nose" problem begins.

Do the above (and only the above) for two weeks, and I think you'll be happy that you did.

The above books (if you don't already have them) can be purchased on the Claude Gordon website run by his widow Patricia:

http://www.claudegordonmusic.com

When you get these books (or now, if you already have them) READ CAREFULLY all the text in the beginning of each book. The flexibility books by Colin, Irons, and Smith and Claude’s “Systematic Approach” all have EXCELLENT explanations of what goes on when we play and what we must do to develop as players.

Good luck with your playing!

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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rich
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can remember having this problem sometime during my highschool years. I can't recall the circumstances ... how often it happened, whether it was due to my lip being tired, during lots of high register playing, etc.

It went away and never had a problem with it again.

rich
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Wolfgang
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I had the same problem a couple of years ago and sometimes it reoccurs when I haven't played for some time. In my case the problem was that the tongue was not in the right position in the back of the mouth. When playing, the back part of the tongue should be between the back teeth. It is hard for me to describe this in English. The position is as if you whistle, you press the tongue a little bit between the back teeth or bite gently on it. The tip of the tongue should rest at the inner wall of your teeth in the lower jaw.

Try to whistle and recall the tongue position. That's it pretty much where the tongue should be. It certainly helped me.

Good Luck,
Wolfgang from Germany
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Wolfgang
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I had the same problem a couple of years ago and sometimes it reoccurs when I haven't played for some time. In my case the problem was that the tongue was not in the right position in the back of the mouth. When playing, the back part of the tongue should be between the back teeth. It is hard for me to describe this in English. The position is as if you whistle, you press the tongue a little bit between the back teeth or bite gently on it. The tip of the tongue should rest at the inner wall of your teeth in the lower jaw.

Try to whistle and recall the tongue position. That's it pretty much where the tongue should be. It certainly helped me.

Good Luck,
Wolfgang from Germany
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