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Jim Manley & Airmen of Note lead trpts hang on YouTube


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Kevin Burns
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Jim Manley & Airmen of Note lead trpts hang on YouTube Reply with quote

This is something any high note enthusiast should enjoy!

On our recent Fall Tour, the Airmen of Note played in St. Louis, MO which is also home to well known high note trumpet artist Jim Manley. Brian MacDonald and I got to hang out with Jim at his house. I knew there would be some great trumpet talk and high notes involved, so I made sure to bring my camera to record the evening. One of the clips shows in pretty good detail, Jim's approach to air that has evolved over the course of his career. There's also quite a bit of Brian playing some great high notes on the other clip. Forgive the low lighting, but I think it ends up being a really cool 'virtual lesson' with my new friend Jim Manley. Thanks for the great hang Jim!

There's a ton of interesting stuff to digest here for some on this forum that have read concepts like compression, resistance, pivoting, low breathing, getting tension away from the neck, etc. but have not had a chance to visualize it or hear it talked about first hand.

This one mostly focuses on Jim's approach to air (I'm the guinea pig):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN1FLJUZ53o

This one has alot of great trumpet talk and lots of high notes - including several triple Gs & Cs from Jim!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-At_upbYTRA

Jim plays the V-Raptor trumpet and mouthpieces both made by Bob Reeves. The Raptor did feel very nice to play as described.

Jim's website is: http://www.jimmanley.net/

Hope you enjoy!

Kevin
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Zsaign
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by Zsaign on Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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gtromble
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is GREAT, Kevin.

Thanks!
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kzem
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a ton of fun!
I liked the sound byte/censor when Jim was talking about "Breathing from the knees."

Kurt Z
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does Jim do that ?
Ultra compression from the lips/tongue and little air ?
Any input ?
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Kevin Burns
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it very easy to immediately get that feeling and unusually full and resonant sound in the lower and middle register using that approach, so the concept proves itself very accurately for me the exact way that he describes it.

Explaining in my own words feels like I'm trying to re-explain what Jim says well in the video, but for me the transfer of the resistance is happening from where it normally feels for me (which is somewhere near to the end of the horn) to right where the lips meet the mouthpiece. I feels like the lips don't have to be 'pushed' into the mouthpiece(which is what happens when a ton of air is behind them), but the vibration of the lips are bouncing off the resistance of the horn very efficiently right at the line of the mouthpiece opening. Jim describes this very concisely in the last 20 seconds of the "trumpet hang" video.

It becomes more apparent why someone can play on a very shallow mouthpiece when this approach is used. Jim himself says that on one of the videos. Jim's piece is one of the most shallow I've seen, but he gets a truckload of sound from it!

It makes me want to experiment on a shallower mouthpiece. I've never gone too shallow, because my lips would bottom out. Based on this concept it's because I always pushed a ton of air out, which in turned pushed my lips into the mouthpiece. As even Jim describes in several moments, you can play and play well that way. But this approach certainly goes along way toward efficiency and reduced tension. I'm all about that these days!
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AverageJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing, Kevin! Having done the hang at Jim's place a few times myself, I can attest to how much fun it is... He's an amazing player who understands EXACTLY how to describe what's happening while he does it. I'm not a lead or screech player, but the way Jim breaks down what he does in his own playing was something I latched on to... In essence, he taught me how to teach myself, which is the highest compliment one can give as far as I'm concerned!

Paul Poovey
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jicetp wrote:
How does Jim do that ?
Ultra compression from the lips/tongue and little air ?
Any input ?


His chops not only move is a pattern that allows unlimited range but the texture of his lip flesh is very supple. Thus the sound does not cut off.

Likely he reached this condition through the ordinary positioning of his chops and regular practice. He "won the lottery" so to speak. In my own natural chop positioning I wasn't so lucky. Got a decent High G but no more. So in order to fiddle around higher I first had to experiment with very unnatural feeling settings that allowed the positioning and suppleness required for Triple C's and such. This required tons of experimentation, patience and hard work.

With an unnatural setting the embouchure must start all over from scratch. It is very weak at first and requires constant reinforcing just to find the "sweet spot" where a third space C is located. This weakness must be overcome until the "unnatural" feels "natural". A lot like learning to write left handed when you wrote rightie before.

Manley is a great player and a really nice guy. He seems to want to give freely of himself. However he is gifted and that state can not be moved from teacher to student. I mean he can't really explain anything he's doing much as he wants to. Maynard was this way: They talk about AIR AIR AIR and they're nice people.

But they've just "got it" and most of us don't.
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Kevin Burns
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:

Manley is a great player and a really nice guy. He seems to want to give freely of himself. However he is gifted and that state can not be moved from teacher to student. I mean he can't really explain anything he's doing much as he wants to. Maynard was this way: They talk about AIR AIR AIR and they're nice people.

But they've just "got it" and most of us don't.


Actually, he does explain himself quite well as anyone that watches the video can see, and as Paul mentioned through his own experience. I've never before listened to someone explain their philosophy of the instrumet and be able to transfer it to my own playing so quickly the way I did with Jim. That equates to an excellent teacher in my opinion.

The video is about his philosophy on air and not a lesson on how to play triple Cs. He was doing that long before he changed his approach to air. It's a lesson on efficiency.

Maybe he even 'won the lottery' at first, but Jim is a great 'student' of the trumpet and therefore is able to communicate his ideas well as a result of the time that he has put into the instrument.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Burns wrote:
It's a lesson on efficiency.
Absolutely right!! Did you notice when he said "no pushing"? If not, watch again. This is one of the biggest problems most players have.
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soulfire
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what did he mean by that? No tightening of the ab muscles?
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AverageJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can attest that Jim did NOT win the chop lottery, as it were.

He told me on numerous occasions that he used to beat the crap out of his chops when he played, and his range was a very forced in his early 20's. He also showed me video proof of it (worth the viewing just for the hair style and wardrobe! ).

Jim got where he is by applying logic to a very patient, focused, diligent practice routine. Like you, Lee, he isn't afraid to experiment. If logic tells him he should change things, he'll check it out. He has found what works and what doesn't work, and he has an uncanny gift for communicating it in way that is easy to digest and implement. I'm not a dedicated lead player, and I don't play small equipment (not my chosen path), but when I hung out with Jim, I put in a smaller mouthpiece (more suited to what he was teaching), and he had me pasting G's and A's with relative ease in one afternoon. If I chose to switch gears and give up orchestra/quintet playing, I'd chunk my 1-1/2C, grab my Warburton 5S and buy a plane ticket to St. Louis to study with Jim full-time for a few months on a regular basis...with numerous trips to see Bobby Shew as well for that matter. Both Jim and Roger Ingram have spring-boarded off of Bobby's concepts. These guys understand chop efficiency and economy of air....they get HUGE results from SMALL equipment.

Paul
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michael manthey
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin,

I believe we met @ Blues Alley when I was out on Maynards band. I think you, Brian, & Paul Stephens were out. Anyway, that's great that you two got to spend some personal time with Jim. When I got back to playing in 1999 I was very fortunate to be able to get a weekly lesson from Jim for about a year. You're exactly right ... it's a lesson in relaxation & efficiency!

Now for the readers, not eveyone is going to be able to play in that extreme register, but, what Jims appraoch will do for you is make playing easier. You'll be able to maximize your potential rather than fighting your own tension.

And again, Kevin, I too agree ... the most efficient place for the compression to take place is at the lips / mouthpiece juncture.

All the best.
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hvand
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin,
Thanks for the post and your willingness to be "taught" for the benefit of the rest of us.

It's a pretty good bet that I will never perform a double high C. Nevertheless, the ideas were quite helpful. I watched the video before I began to practice the 3rd movt of Ewazen's Sonata. In my attempt to be full, loud, and exciting, I was getting tight, overbreathing, and overblowing. Breathing a "little lower" and being more aware of resonance (rather than volume) made it possible to generate more excitement with less effort.

Tension kills volume, just as it does range.

Hank
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim's approach can work for any type of playing, not just triple C's.........You hit it right on the head.
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radtrumpet.com
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome post!!!! Thanks for sharing!!!
peace,
Rob
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bdufls
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thanks for posting these clips. This is really priceless info
for those of us who wonder how guys like Jim Manley do such amazing
things.

All this relates to something I'm working on, which is the role of the abs.
Manley seems to have a lot of "motion" in his playing. By motion I mean
he very quickly goes from resting position to stratospheric high notes and
back to resting. He can quickly flex his abs to just the right level then
relax them seemingly instantaneously. I believe this is one key to
efficiency, only using the minimum amount of effort then quickly going to
a relaxed state to recovery and save energy.

Thoughts?
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AverageJoe wrote:
Both Jim and Roger Ingram have spring-boarded off of Bobby's concepts. These guys understand chop efficiency and economy of air....
Yes, absolutely.
AverageJoe wrote:
they get HUGE results from SMALL equipment.
True, but that's not why they are efficient players.
bdufls wrote:
He can quickly flex his abs to just the right level then
relax them seemingly instantaneously.
That's not what he's doing.
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Burns wrote:
LeeC wrote:

Manley is a great player and a really nice guy. He seems to want to give freely of himself. However he is gifted and that state can not be moved from teacher to student. I mean he can't really explain anything he's doing much as he wants to. Maynard was this way: They talk about AIR AIR AIR and they're nice people.

But they've just "got it" and most of us don't.


Actually, he does explain himself quite well as anyone that watches the video can see, and as Paul mentioned through his own experience. I've never before listened to someone explain their philosophy of the instrument and be able to transfer it to my own playing so quickly the way I did with Jim. That equates to an excellent teacher in my opinion.

The video is about his philosophy on air and not a lesson on how to play triple Cs. He was doing that long before he changed his approach to air. It's a lesson on efficiency.

Maybe he even 'won the lottery' at first, but Jim is a great 'student' of the trumpet and therefore is able to communicate his ideas well as a result of the time that he has put into the instrument.


Another post that I'll bet five hundred will get flamed. The truth is ugly. But better to have a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion...

From what I watched of the two videos there was discussion mostly of just AIR AIR AIR.

OK SO WHAT? The amount or air pressure needed to play the highest and loudest of notes within the normal musical range of the trumpet exists in any healthy non brass playing adult. So let's move on to something else.

He talked about an angular motion of the instrument. Fine but is that helpful? Not really. Most any High School trumpet player with a G top of the staff has seen his trumpet move in one direction either up or down when executing intervals. What we're seeing (and i didn't watch all but close to all of two videos) is a nice guy who is trying to help but the major benefit of his discussion was inspirational not clinical.

I've seen another guy who claims "Caruso" really helped him. Charly R. We used to see him post here until the trolls pushed him out. But Charly always had a decent high register even BEFORE he met Caruso. He just needed a little more fine tuning in order to deal with the extreme demands of lead playing.

I expect that this is what happened to Manley. His range of a solid triple C is not an ordinary expectation for the average hard working trumpet player. Something had to be working there first. A mild tune up or unconscious adjustment to physical law and then he really pulled it off. Some trial and error and a few tips that worked well FOR HIM.

Now that's just a guess however I feel justified in what I'm saying because in his video he doesn't really explain a deep, detailed understanding of the physical law/requirements that extreme range production entails.

So he just blows and gets good results. Big deal! Everyone thinks he's a good teacher and that some enlightenment must be derived but sadly there isn't all that much. I'd compare Manley's clinic to when Maynard (bless his soul) told Miles Davis that he "needed to change his stance" in order to play better high notes. We all loved Maynard (and Miles) but the advice is bunk. If you have a DHC you can play it with the worst posture around. Even while standing on your head.

Again, Manley seems like a great guy and trying to help others. I sincerely hope he continues and that others are helped. However to suggest that any major "nuggets" of advice came out of that video is like seeing Mt. Everest in a picture compared to actually climbing it.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. So you make your point Lee. But all you ever say is how no one ever has the answers or the facts and then you don't give them yourself.
Instead of telling us how this method doesn't work or how Jim's approach won't help anyone, please give us some solid information that we can use to help ourselves. I've read like1000 of your posts and you're great at telling us what won't work. How about telling us what does work?

Eb
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