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Brian Moon
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 Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'll bet that they locked the doors from the outside for this concert.
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well...that was different.
Kent
Last edited by oxleyk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fraserhutch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Many players puff their cheeks to as an effect to create an airy sound. If that's what you're going for, go for it. But to insinuate we're chimps, becuase we learn from imitation, well, bite me. Like a chimp would.
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hefferson
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Off topic....
Definitely not digging that last video....
It seems like a really bad imitation at some of the things Cuong Vu has done. Cuong has chops and some really "out-there" ideas, it's fun to listen to.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| hefferson wrote: | Off topic....
Definitely not digging that last video....
It seems like a really bad imitation at some of the things Cuong Vu has done. Cuong has chops and some really "out-there" ideas, it's fun to listen to. |
Cuong Vu is cool! Kind of spaced out Brecker Bros. I sure hear the same licks over and over though.
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Either is fine. My chops always feel great
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | | kramergfy wrote: | | Almost every trumpet player I've seen has some kind of air pocket, or slight puffing either in the face or the neck when they play. ... |
???
| kramergfy wrote: | | It seems that the thing we want to avoid is completely disengaging the facial muscles ala the Dizzy look. That can lead to problems. It worked for Dizzy, but there are exceptions to every rule, and who's to say he couldn't have been more efficient if he didn't puff his cheeks that much |
Like markchuvala said. It did not work for Dizzy. His chops went down the tubes as his cheeks got worse. |
To clarify, I didn't mean that almost every player I've seen does what Dizzy did; that's an extreme cheek puff. You ever see Maynard play?? His face/neck widened quite a bit. Same with most of the top orchestral players. The widening of the face/neck, is what I'm talking about here. It doesn't necessarily mean it comes in the extreme form of what Dizzy did. And in my experience, most players allow their face or neck to expand to some extent (usually minimal, but its there) when they play loudly.
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out |
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| thedevilisbad wrote: | | differencetone wrote: | | Experts always say never puff your cheeks out when you play trumpet. |
What experts? |
The experts at not puffing out the cheeks?
I remember hearing the Army Jazz Knights back in 1989 and chatting with the trumpet section after the show. The lead player played with Dizzy cheeks, and had just recently enlisted. He was tearing the paint off of the walls two weeks out of basic training after not playing for two months. Can't remember the guy's name.
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| markchuvala wrote: | Diz didn't always have his cheeks so puffed. if you check earlier videos, you can see he had his cheeks controlled much better.
And his sound was much better, and deteriorated over the years. He lost his compact sound, and clarity. He lost intonation and his clean articulation, and his trademark range diminished as well.
M |
It was pretty obvious that Dizzy's chops weren't the same in his later years--but I find almost everything he did enjoyable because of his musical sense.
Even this, weird incongruous costumes notwithstanding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpeCDxWjWrw&feature=related
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1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
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Last edited by spitvalve on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brian Moon
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Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kramergfy wrote: | | Brian Moon wrote: | | kramergfy wrote: | | Almost every trumpet player I've seen has some kind of air pocket, or slight puffing either in the face or the neck when they play. ... |
???
| kramergfy wrote: | | It seems that the thing we want to avoid is completely disengaging the facial muscles ala the Dizzy look. That can lead to problems. It worked for Dizzy, but there are exceptions to every rule, and who's to say he couldn't have been more efficient if he didn't puff his cheeks that much |
Like markchuvala said. It did not work for Dizzy. His chops went down the tubes as his cheeks got worse. |
To clarify, I didn't mean that almost every player I've seen does what Dizzy did; that's an extreme cheek puff. You ever see Maynard play?? His face/neck widened quite a bit. Same with most of the top orchestral players. The widening of the face/neck, is what I'm talking about here. It doesn't necessarily mean it comes in the extreme form of what Dizzy did. And in my experience, most players allow their face or neck to expand to some extent (usually minimal, but its there) when they play loudly. |
That's not air, it is muscle and skin.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | | differencetone wrote: | | Experts always say never puff your cheeks out when you play trumpet. |
What experts? |
The experts at not puffing out the cheeks?
I remember hearing the Army Jazz Knights back in 1989 and chatting with the trumpet section after the show. The lead player played with Dizzy cheeks, and had just recently enlisted. He was tearing the paint off of the walls two weeks out of basic training after not playing for two months. Can't remember the guy's name. |
]
That doesn't mean that it was the best clean sound that he could get.
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Either is fine. My chops always feel great
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trumpetteacher1
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, from your video clips the guys with the best sound puff their cheeks the least. If you don't hear that, keep on teaching that it is ok. The extreme view is yours. If you don't want an arguement keep the discussion to your forum.
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thedevilisbad
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | | differencetone wrote: | | Experts always say never puff your cheeks out when you play trumpet. |
What experts? |
The ones that know what they are talking about. |
Tim Morrison is a cheek puffer, not to the extreme though, I think it just sorta happens.
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Retlaw
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markchuvala
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: |
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What is meant by an "airy sound" and why would that be desired compared to a clean pure trumpet sound??
i've also heard people say 'smokey" sound. The sounds equally dumb.
Instead of getting gimmick sounds, why note focus on the best trumpet sound as possible, and focus on the music you are playing??
Trumpet playing should be as easy (and painless) as possible. Any odd body contortions (puffing cheeks for compressions etc) are a bad idea. Anything that may cause pain or injury is not a good idea.
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
I nominate this as one of the Top 10 Best Posts/Answers of All Time for TH!
From a broader perspective, I nominate it for one of the more polarizing posts on the TH. Polarizing, as in a purely dogmatic view from only one side of the issue. Dogmatic, as in stubbornly adhering to insufficiently proven beliefs; inflexible, rigid.
Further, the comments about Dizzy's demise due to cheek puff are completely speculative, and are merely an atttempt to justify the anti-cheek puff polarized viewpoint. The same is true of comments which claim that Dizzy would have been better if he hadn't puffed his cheeks.
What hubris!
If you have never worked with using cheek puff as a means to an end, then you simply have no experience from which to make such dogmatic statements. Then again, dogma has little to do with actual experience.
JeffQuote:
I nominate this as one of the Top 10 Best Posts/Answers of All Time for TH!
From a broader perspective, I nominate it for one of the more polarizing posts on the TH. Polarizing, as in a purely dogmatic view from only one side of the issue. Dogmatic, as in stubbornly adhering to insufficiently proven beliefs; inflexible, rigid.
Further, the comments about Dizzy's demise due to cheek puff are completely speculative, and are merely an atttempt to justify the anti-cheek puff polarized viewpoint. The same is true of comments which claim that Dizzy would have been better if he hadn't puffed his cheeks.
What hubris!
If you have never worked with using cheek puff as a means to an end, then you simply have no experience from which to make such dogmatic statements. Then again, dogma has little to do with actual experience.
Jeff |
JEEZE, Jeff... 
Best definition of "expert" I've ever heard was during a PR class in grad. Prof exclaimed "An expert is anyone more than 25 miles from his own home town." NS-S! This is a world of non-participating "experts", they can't get the weather right or decide if Earth is warming or cooling (I can), they can't seem to come up with some sort of program that would have students in public educational institutions to perform better as compared with the rest of the world (I can), couldn't figure out how to reduce violent crime (but our plan did), can't figure out how to balance a municipal, state or federal budget (I sure as Hell could), can't figure out political futures (I've been awfully good at that), on and on, ad nauseum. Yet still, the general public seems content to watch or listen to these self-serving tea and crumpet critters, who usually have never done one real thing in their lives except write or comment on that which they espouse to be expert, as their predictions and statements all go south (all the way to Garland, perhaps), time after time. These experts are generally surrounded only with others just like themselves and never seem to get outside their little circle. I do not intend any of the preceding to state a political or religious point of view, I only mention them in passing to try to support the argument. Anyone with a bit more than room temperature IQ can plug in any party or outcome to what I wrote and be equally offended or redeemed...
I suppose a little remedial reading comprehension might help out here, but my post was referring to the use of the word "experts", not someone puffing their cheeks. I suppose that since you've indicated in the past that you already know the POV from which I live my personal life, you might try to assume (you know- make and ASS out of U and ME) that I was somehow slamming Diz, which, IMO would be idiotic for anyone here. Go ahead: puff what ever you want, where ever you want, it isn't going to bother me- it's your gig. You want to have at it with Brian, go ahead, but his comment, to which I replied is fairly well grounded in most brass playing circles. (Again, his comment was towards "experts".
As far as rigid and inflexible, well, let's see now, have you ever heard of "the truth?" There used to be a time where the truth was reality and knowingly going against it was called stupidity. Truth is still fairly constant in most of Mathematics, Nature and the Sciences, and actually in civilization as well, if one knows anything about history dating back to the beginning of humanly-recorded time. Again, this is not political opinion, it is easily proven that over and over, all great civilizations have, for some reason, ended up failing.
I don't think you'll get too much support from people of my "expert definition" for advocating students to emulate Diz's embouchure, but WTH? Here's a great project for you: Get all your puffers together and present a clinic at ITG next summer in Minneapolis. Heck, it's even in your same time zone. I'll come to your presentation, I promise.
Mods- I swear on the stack of all my back issues of ITG Journals that I am not attempting to inject politics or religious views into the above post. Seriously. Scout's honor. |
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Irving
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| I would be interested in hearing both Jeff and Brians' reasons (or anybody elses) for which they think cheek puffing is either bad, good, or unrelated to whether or not a player can be successful. Both seem adamant, but neither has explained why. |
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Sustained note
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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There was a trumpeter who over inflated his cheeks and they ruptured. Tried to google for this story but couldn't find it.
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area51recording
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]
Libs have such a hard time learning.[/quote]
I had a smart a*s comment all set for this, but I think it really stand on it's own just fine....
sad. just really sad. |
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jazztrumpet216
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | I would be interested in hearing both Jeff and Brians' reasons (or anybody elses) for which they think cheek puffing is either bad, good, or unrelated to whether or not a player can be successful. Both seem adamant, but neither has explained why. |
Puffing your cheeks:
- Leads to an unfocused, "airy" sound; not a clean, focused "trumpety" sound. Listen to the funny music clip posted by the OP... that guy sounds like he's playing a (really bad) flugelhorn. If I wanna sound like I'm playing flugel, I'll play flugel.
- Can hamper articulation. Results in an attack that is less than clean.
- Is not natural. Sorry, there is nothing you can say or do to convince me otherwise on this one. Puffing your cheeks is NOT a natural way to play any instrument, I don't care if beginners do it or not. You should not be forcing your body to do something it wouldn't normally do when you play an instrument. To do so introduces tension and is detrimental to your playing.
Did I miss anything?
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