Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 am Post subject:
Quote:
I would be interested in hearing both Jeff and Brians' reasons (or anybody elses) for which they think cheek puffing is either bad, good, or unrelated to whether or not a player can be successful. Both seem adamant, but neither has explained why.
I provided the reasons in the previous post that I linked to. You can get a very clear idea of both views there.
Quote:
Puffing your cheeks:
- Leads to an unfocused, "airy" sound; not a clean, focused "trumpety" sound.
Kevin, this is merely a belief, and one that is not supported in the real world. To say that Tim Morrison is "not clean," is false.
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Listen to the funny music clip posted by the OP...
You pick the worst possible clip to illustrate the supposed universal truth of your point of view. Nobody is arguing that a cheek puff can be negative. I have stopped many a player from puffing, as they were doing it for the wrong reasons. The problem with your position is that you assign a universality to it, and throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Can hamper articulation. Results in an attack that is less than clean.
Again, the evidence which contradicts your point is there for everyone to hear. Players who puff cheeks in an advantagious way clearly have no more problem with articulations than anyone else.
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Is not natural. Sorry, there is nothing you can say or do to convince me otherwise on this one.
OK, it's my time to waste then.
Defining "natural" is impossible. Most players understand that trumpet playing itself is "unnatural." That aside, to further discriminate that something within the context of trumpet playing is unnatural, even when it works very well, is merely a discriminatory belief rather than an evidenced-based demonstration.
Mr. Smiley,
I read the links you posted, and all I got was a link to your website on the evils of incurable skepticism, a thread exactly like this one with a post linking me to a THIRD thread even longer that this one...
I don't mean to be rude, but to keep this from turning into a "you should read what I already wrote [two threads into the past]," do you think you could go ahead and reiterate the benefits of cheek puffing? You've gone in depth into what you AREN'T saying, but not actual reasons for saying it's potentially beneficial. In both threads with you and BM going at it, he's gone over many reasons why puffing is bad but you've only shot them down without giving rebuttals to why it's good.
My own thought is this (none of these are conclusive evidence, but if they aren't evidence then they are a LOT of coincidences):
1- observation: beginners who puff their cheeks find immediate improvement when I advise them to keep their cheeks firm, resist the temptation to relax into the blow.
2- observation: the overwhelming majority of trumpet players in the trumpet community do not puff their cheeks. Many who do (by your own admission) sound bad, and a few who do sound good.
3- fact: there is an exception to every rule. This could easily account for the few who sound good, IOW they might sound good in spite of the puff, not because of it.
4- observation: many low brass players puff their cheeks. NO French horn players do.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2161 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out
Brian Moon wrote:
spitvalve wrote:
thedevilisbad wrote:
differencetone wrote:
Experts always say never puff your cheeks out when you play trumpet.
What experts?
The experts at not puffing out the cheeks?
I remember hearing the Army Jazz Knights back in 1989 and chatting with the trumpet section after the show. The lead player played with Dizzy cheeks, and had just recently enlisted. He was tearing the paint off of the walls two weeks out of basic training after not playing for two months. Can't remember the guy's name.
]
That doesn't mean that it was the best clean sound that he could get.
Conte Candoli was a chronic cheek-puffer, but he had a gorgeous sound IMHO. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I don't mean to be rude, but to keep this from turning into a "you should read what I already wrote [two threads into the past]," do you think you could go ahead and reiterate the benefits of cheek puffing?
It's no more complex than this: The Balanced Embouchure is largely about lip position, and how to achieve the most beneficial lip shapes which are most conducive to achieving tone, range, etc.. Depending on the lip architecture of the player, cheek puffing can be useful at different stages of development - you obviously have to know what you are doing - in helping to bring the lips into a more useful shape.
The problem with the skeptics, who only see the surface level of cheek puffing, and who can only view it as a problem because thay have been educationally conditioned to do so, it that all they really contribute is unreasoning fear. They associate cheek puffing with every negative condition under the sun, with virtually no proof to make those associations. They "believe it," which is ultimately all the evidence they seem to need.
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In both threads with you and BM going at it, he's gone over many reasons why puffing is bad
Spend some time reading those threads. At the end of the day, you will discover that Brian's argument boils down to one thing, that he says that he can always hear the the diference in sound between those who puff and those who don't. But even those without teaching experience can see an obvious fallacy here. How is it possible that cheek puffing ALWAYS makes a worse sound? Based of the pure physics of lip position/tone production, isn't it also possible that cheek puffing can alter tone in positive ways? The answer, of course, is yes, and we actually have ample evidence of that from successful players.
This evidence opens a door which you can either choose to pretend doesn't exist, or you can choose to explore, and seek to understand.
It's no more complex than this: The Balanced Embouchure is largely about lip position, and how to achieve the most beneficial lip shapes which are most conducive to achieving tone, range, etc.. Depending on the lip architecture of the player, cheek puffing can be useful at different stages of development - you obviously have to know what you are doing - in helping to bring the lips into a more useful shape.
Based of the pure physics of lip position/tone production, isn't it also possible that cheek puffing can alter tone in positive ways? The answer, of course, is yes, and we actually have ample evidence of that from successful players.
Ah!
I see what you're saying.
But I also gather that one should not advocate it unless the person truly gets a better sound when they puff their cheeks. In which case it's likened to upstream vs. downstream: a guy fiddling around with a trumpet in a methods class (he's a percussion guy) noted that he had an easier time playing upstream, but I advised him to go ahead and continue playing down because his sound was significantly better. The cheek puffers would be another minority, but on a smaller scale.
I'll submit this, though:
I've never personally known a trumpet player to benefit from playing with puffed cheeks. And I'd certainly never recommend it to a beginner unless his sound was markedly better and his endurance/range suffered almost nothing; usually it's the other way around. If a student is looking for a smoky, airy sound, there are much better ways to get it than adopting a different embouchure.
But I see what you're saying, Mr. Smiley. And you've certainly come across more trumpet students than I have. ;D
-Peter _________________ "Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:00 pm Post subject:
My son started playing trumpet in 6th grade. Of course we played together almost every day. He showed promise almost immediately. Good sound and range. By his freshman year in high school he was playing high G's consistently and won 1st chair in the top jazz band at his school. Some time during his freshman year he began puffing his cheeks, mainly while playing in the upper register (high C on up). I never told him not to but asked him why he did it. He said it helped him keep his lips in the mouthpiece while playing high and loud. His sound was clear as a bell and his attacks were clean and precise.
He was still puffing his cheeks his junior year and still playing better than ever. That year he won the lead chair in the Indiana All-State Jazz Band. Sometime during the summer between junior and senoir year his cheek puffing subsided but his tone and range had not changed. He won the lead chair at State again his senior year.
He had many teachers and veteran players tell him to quit the cheek puff. He believes the puffing gradually went away as his embouchure gained the muscle memory needed to play properly. _________________ Dan Burton
Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 494 Location: Eau Claire, WI
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject:
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Quote:
Puffing your cheeks:
- Leads to an unfocused, "airy" sound; not a clean, focused "trumpety" sound.
Kevin, this is merely a belief, and one that is not supported in the real world. To say that Tim Morrison is "not clean," is false.
If you'd like to see some great Tim Morrison trumpet playing, here is some. You will see there is almost no discernible cheek puff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G6r5KcgJQw
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Quote:
Is not natural. Sorry, there is nothing you can say or do to convince me otherwise on this one.
OK, it's my time to waste then.
Defining "natural" is impossible. Most players understand that trumpet playing itself is "unnatural." That aside, to further discriminate that something within the context of trumpet playing is unnatural, even when it works very well, is merely a discriminatory belief rather than an evidenced-based demonstration.
Jeff
Natural: functioning or occurring in a normal way; lacking abnormalities or deficiencies. If you can tell me you walk around running errands, working out, taking out the trash, and going about your daily life while puffing your cheeks, I have nothing to say. Further, if you believe that playing the trumpet is not natural and one cannot have a natural approach to trumpet playing; then there are quite a few people teaching the Alexander Technique that apparently just do not know what they're doing, right? _________________ Kevin Peterson
1940 NY Bach 7/37 — 2009 Bach Philadelphia C — 1972 Bach 37/Melk #3 — 1969 Yamaha 734 — 1961 Mt. Vernon Bach 43 — 2013 Schilke P5-4 B/G — 1990's Getzen Eterna flugel
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: Puff Your Cheeks Out
dmb wrote:
He had many teachers and veteran players tell him to quit the cheek puff. He believes the puffing gradually went away as his embouchure gained the muscle memory needed to play properly
Excellent Post - I think this says it all.
Your son excelled because he was smart enough to figure out what worked for him and resisted the pressure from the experts to adopt a conventional embouchure.
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out
jimh46 wrote:
dmb wrote:
He had many teachers and veteran players tell him to quit the cheek puff. He believes the puffing gradually went away as his embouchure gained the muscle memory needed to play properly
Excellent Post - I think this says it all.
Your son excelled because he was smart enough to figure out what worked for him and resisted the pressure from the experts to adopt a conventional embouchure.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If you'd like to see some great Tim Morrison trumpet playing, here is some.
If you want to see Tim Morrison puff, go to a live clinic, and listen to what he says about his own setup.
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Natural: functioning or occurring in a normal way; lacking abnormalities or deficiencies.
You simply can't arbitrarily decide what is abnormal on trumpet, at least you can't and have any credibility. Lip positions vary in many ways. I have had students whose embouchures were completely messed up as the result of trying to adhere to a teachers strict dogma.
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If you can tell me you walk around running errands, working out, taking out the trash, and going about your daily life while puffing your cheeks, I have nothing to say.
None of those things have anything to do with trumpet embouchure. If you think that taking out the trash has something to do with trumpet embouchure, then I have nothing to say.
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Further, if you believe that playing the trumpet is not natural and one cannot have a natural approach to trumpet playing; then there are quite a few people teaching the Alexander Technique that apparently just do not know what they're doing, right?
Natural is in the eye of the beholder. For centuries, it was considered "natural" that women brass players were inferior to men. Only when the visual component was removed, and blind testing ensued, were women allowed to take their rightful place as orchestral players in major symphonies. Visual predudice, from cultural conditioning, is overwhelming.
Alexander Technique has it's place, but doesn't directly translate to trumpet embouchure. In my opinion, it's not even the best way to restore physiological balance, but that is a subject for another time.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject:
Quote:
He was still puffing his cheeks his junior year and still playing better than ever. That year he won the lead chair in the Indiana All-State Jazz Band. Sometime during the summer between junior and senoir year his cheek puffing subsided but his tone and range had not changed. He won the lead chair at State again his senior year.
He had many teachers and veteran players tell him to quit the cheek puff. He believes the puffing gradually went away as his embouchure gained the muscle memory needed to play properly.
Thank you for posting, Dan. That closely mirrors the experience of some of my students as well. Motion economizes over time, as do air pockets.
But, special kudos to your son for staying the course and achieving what he did...in Indiana! I'm sure that he faced more than his share of well-meaning critics there.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject:
Quote:
But I also gather that one should not advocate it unless the person truly gets a better sound when they puff their cheeks. In which case it's likened to upstream vs. downstream: a guy fiddling around with a trumpet in a methods class (he's a percussion guy) noted that he had an easier time playing upstream, but I advised him to go ahead and continue playing down because his sound was significantly better. The cheek puffers would be another minority, but on a smaller scale.
Peter, my experience is that a good sound can be developed in a variety of setups. The initial sound is therefore not the sole determining factor.
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I've never personally known a trumpet player to benefit from playing with puffed cheeks.
I've known several, besides students. For students, adding an element of cheek puff is normally done in conjunction with a purposeful change in lip position. So, it would make sense that you have not had students who puff, if you don't couple it to a lip position goal.
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If a student is looking for a smoky, airy sound, there are much better ways to get it than adopting a different embouchure.
I assume that you are correct, since I have no experience in helping a student get such a sound.
I also have many students, but I don't claim to be an expert. I do however take notice of lots of stuff.
One reason for cheek puffing is playing with wide open teeth. Which is a good thing. However to deal with the larger column of air, the cheeks make the necessary resistance.
A better choice would be the tongue. Fill the wide open cavity with a fat tongue, wide and spread in between jaw, and closing/centering the column of air.
This way the air won't escape, and be wasted....filling the cheeks. Complete waste of energy that should be going into the trumpet.
Plus the undo strain can cause early fatigue, and permanent damage.
Don't just tell me about your expertise. Let me hear someone good who you have taught, who puffs with as clear of a sound as possible, not some 18 year old in a marching band.
Dizzy sounded terrible as he got older and his cheeks puffed more and more. There should be no debate though because you have already crowned yourself the embouchure expert.
It isn't about playing as clearly as possible for everyone. I know you and 99% will argue with what I am about to say but the greatest living trumpet player in the world puffs his cheeks. He is not the most clear or the most loud trumpet player.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:39 am Post subject:
Quote:
This way the air won't escape, and be wasted....filling the cheeks. Complete waste of energy that should be going into the trumpet.
This is a common argument, based in part on a misunderstanding of how much air that it takes to actually play trumpet. In addition, those who puff don't feel that they are "losing air," as any air usage difference between a puff and a non-puff is negligible, comparable to the difference between a small oral cavity or a large oral cavity. Finally, those who puff often achieve an improved seal between lips and mouthpiece, and an increased ease in lip vibration, both of which result in the need for less air.
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Plus the undo strain can cause early fatigue, and permanent damage.
The bias here returns again to how it looks. Those who puff successfully can actually experience less strain. And the idea of permanent damage is always an added into the equation by those who disapprove of how the puff looks. There is, of course, no proof that a cheek puff has any inherent danger. On the contrary, our faces are built to accomodate a puff quite easily.
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Puff Your Cheeks Out
jimh46 wrote:
dmb wrote:
He had many teachers and veteran players tell him to quit the cheek puff. He believes the puffing gradually went away as his embouchure gained the muscle memory needed to play properly
Excellent Post - I think this says it all.
Your son excelled because he was smart enough to figure out what worked for him and resisted the pressure from the experts to adopt a conventional embouchure.
I think this reinforces Jeff Smiley's point.
Regards
Jim
Here's my perspective - Cheek puffing, in general, does not do much to help play the trumpet. I have had students who puffed, and their playing was sloppy, in every instance. Their attacks all improved dramatically when corrected.
However, their are always exceptions. The difference between the young man mentioned above and most puffers is that the aforementioned student was smart enough to know that the puff worked for him, whereas most puffers don't know why they do it, if they're even conscious of it. In my experience, most students don't know how to figure out exactly what works for them on their own.
Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 206 Location: Bay Area, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:59 am Post subject:
I started screwing around with puffing my cheeks right after reading this thread. I was just playing soft scales as high as I could go starting on low c. Trouble started around Ab just above the staff; but I hung in there, fiddled around with it, experimented and got up to a B right below high C. Not amazing, but I was screwing around. The amazing part happened when I went back to my regular embouchure. Sizzling high C, D, Eb, E & the F is almost sizzling (but louder than it's ever been). Never have these notes been so easy, loud & clear. WOW! BTW, this compliments the almost solid month of BE I've been doing everyday.
I will preface the above statement with: I can "hit" those notes, but not "play" them, if that makes sense. My high C and notes above were always hard to play and weak. My inefficiency would never allow me to play those notes with a clear tone, therefore I was always "working to hard."
I'm going for an unclear tone. BTW, the Dizzy video was amazing. Most audience members don't care about the tone. Only musicians and music geeks care about it. What notes you play and staying in tune is what really matters and as Miles put it "the space between the notes".
It's different if you are in an orchestra or a band in which you have to blend in with other players. Then there should be a standard sound.
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