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Annie
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Sorry Reply with quote

Sorry if anyone thought I was personally attacking and or offending them by asking for prayer for my student who is in the hospital. It may not be in everyone's beliefs that prayer does good, but there are others on this site that do believe as such, and since I have come to know some of you on this site, and that you do have some similar beliefs, I only innocently asked for prayer and it was not my intention to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
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*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*
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Moderators
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 3896

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone believes that a violation of the Usage Agreement of TH policies has occurred should contact Moderators.

Please do not attempt the enforce the Usage Agreement yourself.
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johnsboy
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Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 380

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you left Annie's "apology" and have cropped off my reaction to it. Thanks - that was certainly even-handed of you.
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Don Herman rev2
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Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TH is a community of people, not all like-minded. However, lashing out at someone clearly in pain over another's suffering by claiming they are intolerant, condescending, forcing their religion upon you, etc. (I don't recall all that was said) strikes me as pretty low. Perhaps you could have simply not responded, then ignored that thread? Why pummel the lady for reaching out to those she considers on-line friends?

I don't get it... - Don
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johnsboy
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Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that you don't get it - you apparently didn't read my first post on the subject and are basing your opinion of my post on the sh*t storm it attracted from the religious fringe on here. My post, in response to her request for prayers, was very measured and, in no way, resembled the "attack" you describe. In addition, my references to intolerance were in response to being called intolerant (not by Annie), my reference to condescending was directed at someone who, in response to my original request had posted a very condescending response directly at me. I don't recall saying anyone was forcing their religion upon me (though I believe, given half a chance, a few of you would do just that) - what I did say was that, if not directed to stop, some of you would turn Trumpetherald into a prayer chain. Can you argue with that?

I would direct you to read back through each and every one of my responses and my original post in order to, with a little less misplaced passion, discover that what I've said above is true . . . but, of course, you can't because the approach of the moderators, in situations of this sort, seems to be to pull the posts they themselves find offensive and leave the remarks that paint those now absent sentences as inflammatory, intolerant and condescending.

I wish a few of you would not, in a knee jerk fashion, identify my remarks as lashing out simply because you disagree with them. If you think that my observations are not correct tell me that and tell me in what way I am wrong - don't get belligerant and call me a jerk (as LittleRusty pretty much did). Don't tell me I am wrong in a condescending manner (as LittleRusty pretty much did). And for god's sake, when idiots like LittleRusty attack me personally for having an opinion different from his - don't remove my only avenue of self defense by obliterating my responses to his boorishness.

And above all, if you're going to denounce something that I have said or done - at least have the decency to have read or observed what you are denouncing.

And as for me trying to enforce the usage agreement myself - since I don't feel, under these kinds of circumstances the moderators should be stepping in and I believe that all of the posts should have been left for everyone to see and read back through (so you could verify my assertion that LittleRusty was the first to attack and I was only defending myself) . . . I'm hardly trying to enforce your User Agreement myself. Hell, if you don't want to enforce it, why would I want to?
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A.N.A.Mendez
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

javascript:emoticon('')


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"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
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johnsboy
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Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell me, "Mendez", since it would seem you find this amusing - did you read my response to Annie's "call to prayer"? Apparently Don Herman did not - but feels comfortable offering his opinion of its content and qualities of attack. Can anybody out there remember (since they've been expunged) precisely what, in my posts would qualify as "attack language"? Can you identify something I said that was the least bit confrontational? You can't. Because I didn't use any "attack" language and, though I got confrontation in response, nothing I said was the least bit deserving of the personal attacks directed at me. In fact, I included a statement of my condolences and assured Annie that I hoped her student got well. What an attacking, confrontational bastard I am.
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk about revisionist history. I did not attack. I simply pointed out that not every one felt the way JB did. I did say I would "keep him in my thoughts".

For the record I did use the term intolerant, because I honestly felt that was the case. I also, in my opinion, accurately referred to JB's post as a diatribe.

Perhaps my posts were misinterpreted as an attack, just as I might have misinterpreted JB's.

In hindsight a simple statement like Don's might have been better. Thank you Don for clearly expressing my initial thoughts.
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solotromba
New Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsboy wrote:
What an attacking, confrontational bastard I am.


hmmm...what's the word I'm looking for......AMEN!
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read every post in the thread, including the first after Annie posted, yours (johnsboy), requesting she stop (among other things).

I had more to say, but couldn't quite figure out how to say it. We obviously have such diametrically opposed viewpoints that I don't think we could ever reach a middle ground.

I have other things going on and decided this just isn't worth it. - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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johnsboy
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Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have things I need to be doing so I'll limit my remarks to this: I know the "agreement" states only that we shall not discuss religion. Some would say that using space on Trumpetherald to practice a particular religious "rite" is not discussion and so is perfectly alright. Praying, and asking people to pray, are religious practices. If you feel comfortable using the above described logic (that discussion was not taking place) then I guess I don't have an argument against you. But I think it is completely disingenuous to agree not to discuss religion and then openly participate in a patently religious ritual (prayer) . . . and then defend the practice by saying "we weren't discussing".

LittleRusty: you did attack. Simply declaring that you didn't doesn't make what you did "not an attack". You did use the term intolerant - and I felt it as an attack (be honest with yourself - that was your intent). You did write comments fraught with condescension (and knew it at the time). Your posts were not "misinterpreted" in any way - you attacked me and you were condescending - and that's the message I got. No misinterpretation.

Dr. Herman: We most certainly do have diametrically opposed viewpoints - and that's okay. What is not okay is dismissing my concerns, out of hand, without subjecting them to the "maybe, just maybe, this guy has a legitimate concern" test. If you read my posts without the immediate inclination to dislike them and me they read differently. What I asked of Annie, and the rest of you out there, was not unreasonable and I didn't ask it in a mean-sprited way. I took some trouble to compose what I thought was a well articulated plea to stop practicing religion on Trumpetherald. I expressed personal sadness (which I truly felt) for Annie's student's situation. And then the attacks (yep LittleRusty, attacks) began.
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a doctor of anything; that's my dad.

I did not dismiss your concerns, nor your desire to express them. I do think you should have voiced your concerns in another (new) thread, not the first post after an appeal for help and support. The subsequent argument (by all parties) was over the line. I did take your initial post more harshly than you apparently intended, as did several others (not just Little Rusty). A major problem with the 'net is that, without body language and facial expressions, and with significant time lag between post and response, not to mention (so I will anyway) cultural differences and language barriers, things can easily get interpreted wrongly.

And, yes, your first interpretation of the UA is the one used for moderation -- a casual mention in passing in a thread or even appeal for a prayer is not considered religious discussion. There has to be some give and take, imo, anytime people interact, in person or on-line. Associating only with people of exactly the same mindset and beliefs can be a bit boring, imo. The flip side is that, especially on the Internet (for the reasons above), I feel a little more tolerance is required, from everyone (myself included).

Peace - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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johnsboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peace right back atcha. Your observation about communication on the net having the limitations you describe is spot on . . . and, to a large extent, I feel like the perception some of you might have of me, and your reactions to some of my posts, are the result of these limitations. I was raised among profoundly sarcastic and sardonic people - we all think we're funny as hell and that our opinions are always right. But as I've aged I've made a concerted effort to tone that down and, at least I think this is the case, if you were to ask people who know me, "in the flesh", about my harsh approach to "discussion" . . . you'd likely be met with a blank stare of confusion. I was truly surprised at the harshness some of you directed at me for expressing my view. I was equally surprised that nobody else expressed agreement with my view that a "call for prayer" on Trumpetherald is inappropriate - especially in light of the sh*tstorm that occurs every time someone makes the seemingly innocuous mistake of mentioning they have a horn for sale anywhere but in the Marketplace. The UA does not specifically say you cannot practice religion or encourage others to participate in a religious rite in the Reveille forum. It only says we can't discuss religion. If you, truly, think it was the intent of the "powers that be" that it be okay to conduct religious practices (and prayer is a religious practice) - as long as you don't (God forbid) discuss them, then I have no argument. I think that position is completely absurd - I think it was the intent of that part of the agreement that there would be no religious practice or discussion anywhere in Trumpetherald - but then . . . that's just my opinion. Your opinion, obviously, carries a lot more weight than mine.
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_Daff
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Joined: 08 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good share of theistic inuendo has appeared on TH over the years, including within signatures, and it's easy to see how such references of very personal perspective can bring discomfort, such as a feeling of exclusion, to those with differing perspectives.

There is a reason that sex, religion, and politics are the 'taboo' topics and I agree that it's best that any reference to the topics be avoided here.

That being said, I think reference to the first of the three should be allowed when accompanied by good, high-resolution photographs.

Breathe deeply guys.
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swthiel
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 3967
Location: Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Daff, you owe me a monitor!
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johnsboy
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Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So any reference to Monica Lewinsky (inasmuch as it would reference all three of the "taboo topics") is strictly verboten?

I think I'm starting to understand the subtleties of this users agreement.
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_Daff
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Joined: 08 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsboy wrote:
So any reference to Monica Lewinsky (inasmuch as it would reference all three of the "taboo topics") is strictly verboten?

I think I'm starting to understand the subtleties of this users agreement.
Might as well throw a little racism and vulgarity in there and really spice things up.

Okay, so.... ya got yer sex (plenty 'o' sex, of course), ya got yer religion (or lack thereof ..... I'm an equal opportunity poster), ya got yer politics, ya got yer racism, ya got yer vulgarity, ya got yer plenty 'o' sex , hmm, what are we missing here, oh, ya got yer plain ol' rotten meanness.....

Okay, so the official Brand New Rules are that each post has to include ALL of the 'ya gots', or yer outa here Bub! (At the whim of the participant, exceptions made for those posting REALLY good photos.)
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mention --ok (may depend upon context).
Discussion -- no.
Pictures -- PM!
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnsboy,

My posts were entirely intended as discussion. If you remember my initial post stated that I felt others on the forum participate in church related music so they might be interested in responding and since the thread was clearly identified that you might want to just ignore it. Then there was the final line which might not have been advisable, saying I would "keep you in my thoughts" hoping you would develop tolerance.

Your response was to show how you and others were cheated out of pay for gigs and then to state that since you personally found the word "prayer" offensive no one should be allowed to use it.

I find that intolerant, and I suspect that most of the rest of the people on here do also, even though you might not have meant it that way.

I worked very hard on my wording to avoid attacking since I also believed that people would charge in.

I am a very candid person and I have learned over the years that if I say to myself, "I probably shouldn't do something" then I probably shouldn't.

I felt the same way for you when you opened your post saying you would be the bad guy and that you expected flames.

Other than the one line in my original post I truly didn't have any hidden meanings or condescension.
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johnsboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"My posts were entirely intended as discussion."

And discussion of things religious is verboten.

I know others on this forum participate in church related ritual and ceremony. Some of that is music, prayer, liturgy . . . and, in my opinion, none of it is supposed to be discussed nor practiced on Trumpetherald. Praying is practicing religion. I know the UA doesn't specifically prohibit religious practices being carried out on their site . . . don't you think, perhaps, practicing a religious ritual is likely to be even more offensive than merely discussing it? You can use that bogus "it doesn't specifically say we can't pray" defense . . . but it's a nonsense argument and you should know it without me telling you so.

I was not cheated out of a gig by pseudoChristians - I was twice asked, as an architect, to design religious facilities (a sanctuary and a large school). I incurred thousands of dollars worth of employee overhead expenses in the production of Design Development level documents and then the project was handed over to one of my competitors and I was paid nothing for my services - no fee, and I had to pay my employees out of my own pocket. The buildings were built exactly as I designed them and my competitor pocketed the entire design fee (tens of thousands of dollars). You know what the president of my congregation said to me as I closed my office doors and let my hardworking employees go? "We hope there are no hard feelings - we hope we'll continue to see you Sunday mornings". Every time I hear or read about other people being "reborn" or benefitting from prayer (ya think maybe I didn't pray a little through that whole travesty?) I get a little nauseous and I have to re-live the whole experience over again. The bottom line is I shouldn't have to read that drivel on Trumpetherald - you guys can talk to your heart's content on sites devoted to your own special superstitious rituals. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to expose myself to your uninformed scorn in order to get you to stop - you just should. Stop. You say that since I find the word prayer offensive I believe no one should be allowed to use it. I do find the word offensive. But in this case my objection was not to the use of the word prayer but to extending a very public call to actually pray on the site . . . and some of you did (on the earlier call for prayer the previous week). If thinking that we shouldn't get into the habit of soliciting prayers on Trumpetherald is, in your view, intolerant - okay, I'm intolerant. And you like to provoke argument (at the very least with me) knowing full well I feel strongly about this subject and you can "get my goat". That about right? A very "Christian" stance to take - thank you very much for the loving way you have treated me.

As for you feeling, for me, that I should have felt "I probably shouldn't do this" as I posted my initial remarks - I had seen a call for prayer just days before and was seeing a new call to prayer on that day . . . and I knew you guys were going to turn a site I very much enjoy visiting and posting to, into a damned "prayer chain". Virtually everyone in America knows someone who is going through hard times or experiencing ill health or has lost a loved one - should I have sat silent and observed Trumpetherald turning into something that makes me squirm with discomfort? Why? Because you say so? Because you want to flaunt your piety outside your Christian circle of friends and insinuate your practices into my secular world? I promise you, every time you try to do that, I will let you know just how much I don't appreciate it.
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