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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: Bach 10.5C (10 1/2) equivalents |
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Hey guys,
I've been messing around with a Bach 10.5 C and find myself strangely attracted to the blow and feel. I am digging the small diameter of the cup. It feels like I only lose a bit in the sound on the low range overall. The rest of the sound seems fairly consistent to my Wedge pieces I play (all 3 rims, actually).
I'm going to chat with Dr. Dave at NTC about this in a Wedge size but what's your feeling about that mouthpiece. I think the Bobby Shew Marcinkiewicz pieces are close to that rim, right? I used to play lead on a 1.25 Shew.
I'd love hearing back from some of the mouthpiece guys about that size rim and what other manufacturers make pieces like that.
This piece seems to be an ideal rim diameter to play long jazz solos on... that might sound weird but that's my initial impression.
Best,
T _________________ http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: |
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I've tested several Bach 10.5 Cs over the years, and they were all different (some drastically) in width and depth.
So the one you're liking might be quite different from those TH posters could be reporting on. Just a heads up. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: |
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I think Reeves 41 is about that diameter. Also, Purviance line has some legendary pieces in that size. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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forrest Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 695 Location: St Louis MO
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I played 10 1/2C's for years. The most comfortable for me were the early 70's Bach pieces (don't remember if that was "Corp" or "Corp.". I'll have to look when I get home tonight.).
I recall trying a Mt Vernon and it was different than the later pieces - not good or bad, just different.
Try 'em all. All I know is the current pieces aren't comfortable for me.
BTW, I tried a Marc. Shew 2 last week and found it really tight. The 1.25 might be better, I don't know.
Edit - just checked my 10 1/2 - it s a "Corp" (no "."). I also have a Mt Vernon 10 1/2 with a nick on the rim. I need to send it to Tom Green for restoration so I can give it a try.
Last edited by forrest on Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by jadickson on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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leadtpt1955 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 221 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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I love that mpc! Back in college when I was on a straight Bach 3 my teacher thought I lacked some brilliance in my sound and pulled a 10.5 out of his drawer for me to try. Instant improvement! Since then I've tried and used a number of variations on a 10.5 theme - Marcinkiewicz Shew series, Parke Bergeron Personal, Warburton 6 series - with varying job-specific results. I like them all and use them all including the original 10.5 I got 26 years ago. It's not really all that small a piece despite what many think. Pretty average overall. And remember, Vincent Bach himself recommended it for C trumpet. So there!!! _________________ Rick
Adams A4LT Trumpet
Adams Sterling Silver Bell Flugelhorn |
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Fleebat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2058 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Trent,
I've been playing a stock, new-ish (current) Bach 10.5 C for about eight/nine months. This after decades locked into the 3C & 3C equivalent pieces. I have 3Cs from several eras, and similar-sized stuff from Curry, GR, Reeves, LOUD, Warburton... you name it. I don't remember what prompted me to look into the 10.5C, but I'm hooked.
There is something about the combination of that smaller diameter and the deeper, bowl-shaped cup... For me, it seems to both promote and respond to chops that are more relaxed - which has been a holy-grail thing in my case. I find if I use the kind of tension that haunted me for years, I lapse into the smaller, thinner sound that many believe this diameter produces.
I've owned a couple of Marcinkiewicz Shew pieces for quite a while - the 1.5 and 2, and don't have much luck getting a very full sound with them. BUT....
If you go to the Marcinkiewicz site and check out the Standard Mouthpieces page (not the Signature/Endorsee page), you'll find that Model 6 through Model 10 are 10.5 - sized rims with graduated cup depths. Why more people don't do this with more sizes is baffling, but this little range offered by Marcinkiewicz is great. I have a Model 8 that seems exactly like the 10.5 (in terms of rim). Also have the Model 10/10.5C... the rim is the same diameter but feels slightly different. The idea, of course, is to have the Model 8 for those times when I need a little more edge, but I'm finding I don't use it much. The 10.5 is allowing me to get most any sound I want. (Note... I'm not a big fan of the "peel paint" thing.) But for those who need a good bit of edge, the Marcink. Standards might be killer. The model 8 is very much like the Shew 2, a tad deeper, and an easier blow & more meat in the sound.
When I was trying to acclimate to the 10.5, indoctrinated as I was to the 3C thing, there was a big "Aha!" moment for me when I started a day with a simple, relaxed long-tone thing - pretty much like the Claude Gordon deal from the first pages of his SA book. I'm not a disciple of any one pedagogue, btw. I played 30-second, relaxed notes from C in the staff down to low F#. Medium volume. Best 20 minutes I ever spent on a trumpet, for what it did. For the rest of the day, I got a huge, beautiful sound that I couldn't replicate with my 3C, a 1.5C, anything else in the big box of pieces that follows me around. Just a little more air gave me this really nice "zing." I was in heaven. I do this as a daily ritual now, and the 10.5C always feels like home.
I don't seem to have "morning face" anymore. Pick it up, relaxed chops with a nice, full breath - sound and response is there. Just there. And I haven't had an endurance meltdown since I started using the 10.5C. Last night I played a 3-hour rock gig with no breaks. I would have folded like an old wallet on that gig only a year ago. Nice, fat, zingy Fs on the last tune. For someone who's struggled with range and endurance as long and as badly as I have all these years, that's La-la land. Large fun.
I always had this mindset that I'd find the perfect horn, then settle on a couple mouthpieces that would give me the range of sounds I needed for what I wanted to play. Now I'm seeing it the other way around. The 10.5C is the anchor thing. I have an older Strad that's like buttah, and a Yamaha LA that lights up a little more quickly. So, one mouthpiece, two horns, rather than the other way around. Working for me.
I know that mouthpiece size is dependent to a large degree on the player's physical setup. But if a 10.5 works for you, it's a very, very cool and versatile piece. Sorry for the book here. Your post just hit me where I live.
Best,
Rusty Russell |
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lemons Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 64 Location: NYC
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
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For years I played on a Denis Wick 5E which is around a Bach 10E. Every mouthpiece I've played on since has been a variant of that. There was a custom GR and now a custom Monette prana. That size has worked out great for me.
-Kevin |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I'm just looking at the Bach 10.5C on the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator. The cup looks surprisingly "V-shaped," not unlike the 6B.
Last edited by jadickson on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Hey Trent,
I recently purchased Kanstul's Heim 2 copy of Miles mpc, and it's got some definate similarities to my MV 10.5 C, a little more support down by the throat, steeper drop near the top. I'm imagining an old pro like yourself has tried that one by now, but I like it better for a sweet sound than my 10.5.
As for Rusty's report, I found a similar revelation moving smaller than my 3C which requires relaxed chops down low to make those notes sing, but I still dig the bright, happy, big 3C!
ed |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking the Gustat would be close but the rim is funky on the Gustat. I had tried one of Doug M's great mouthpieces based on the Gustat and really dug it. He had a great rim on that mouthpiece. At the time I thought the cup might be too small in diameter. hmm.
I too have played the Bobby Shew 2 and dug that for a while but the radical entry into the cup paired with the small backbore didn't do it for me. I pulled my old CT mouthpiece Clark gave me and the ID feels close to a 10.5 as well. That rim is completely flat though... really bizarre!
Thanks everyone... keep the comments coming.
-t _________________ http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: |
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The Bob Reeves 42C is very close to the 10 1/2 C in terms of inner cup diameter. The 42C's cup depth is slightly shallower than a 10 1/2 C. So if you like the cup diameter, and want a slightly brighter sound and even easier upper register, I'd recommend the 42C. The 10 1/2 C is the green scan and the 42C is the red scan (click on the image to make it bigger).
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | The Bob Reeves 42C is very close to the 10 1/2 C in terms of inner cup diameter. The 42C's cup depth is slightly shallower than a 10 1/2 C. So if you like the cup diameter, and want a slightly brighter sound and even easier upper register, I'd recommend the 42C. The 10 1/2 C is the green scan and the 42C is the red scan (click on the image to make it bigger).
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cool!
thanks for the note... you just gotta love the Kanstul comparator. _________________ http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1465 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | The Bob Reeves 42C is very close to the 10 1/2 C in terms of inner cup diameter. The 42C's cup depth is slightly shallower than a 10 1/2 C. So if you like the cup diameter, and want a slightly brighter sound and even easier upper register, I'd recommend the 42C. The 10 1/2 C is the green scan and the 42C is the red scan (click on the image to make it bigger).
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Interesting...I was using the 40M as the 10 1/2 C equivalent. I suppose it depends on how you look at it.
I will say the 10 1/2 C was a happy discovery for me too. Mount Vernons are great quality and can run for 10 bucks on ebay. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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Fleebat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2058 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I would love the Kanstul Comparator, if you could still get to the good one. There is the standard Comparator, which you can still access via the Kanstul site, and another that has way more pieces from many more makers (such as Reeves, Marcinkiewicz), which is where John gets his example. For some reason, Kanstul (Jim? Please?) has un-linked the old link, so it just takes you to the standard Comparator. This is a great tool; why they don't make the much better version available is hard to understand.
John refers to comparisons which can be made with the more complete Comparator all the time, but as the link to it is now some kind of super double secret, the rest of us can't make comparisons of our own. I've asked John for a link about ten times in various threads, but never got a response. Anyone who goes to the Comparator currently available on the Kanstul site (version 2.0! Wow!) will not be able to find the Reeves scans.
I have a set of Reeves 42 pieces, a C and an S (have a pair of 43s also). All cut for sleeves. The 42 rims are fatter & more round, with a good deal less inner edge bite as compared to my 10.5C. They do feel about the same diameter, though.
Edit: I think the softer bite of the Reeves is what makes the smaller sizes (40, etc.) feel -for some people - closer to the 10.5C in terms of inner diameter.
RR |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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study888 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 356 Location: Darlington,S.C.
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: Bach 10 1/2C (10 1/2) equivalents. |
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Hello Trent. Will keep a eye on this topic and see where it goes. Lot of great info. so far. Have not checked all the Bach cups against each other on the K. Comparater. One thing I noticed,is the Bach 10 1/2C and the Bach 3C have the same med. shallow C cup. Just differant rim sizes and maybe a little variance in the rim design. That being compared to the deepest C cup on the Bach 7C and 5C C cups. These two have C cups close to a Bach B cup. Why I am calling the Bach 10 1/2C and Bach 3C C cups med. shallow. May not apply in theory or thought against other M.P.'s C cup brands. My best 10 1/2C Bach piece at the moment is a Corp. piece. I have another small letter Bach 10 1/2 C that is fine, but seems not to have as much rim grip. Your best bet would be to try some of the Corp. ones or the latest brand new ones, being made by Bach. Bach is now using the newer CN lathes and picked their Cherry pieces to restart with. Some of the new pieces like the Bach 3C.5C,7C etc. has new smaller MM rim sizes,compared to the older Bach charts. I believe the Bach 10 1/2C rim size has not changed. Bach by using the new CN lathes. You should get a accurate Bach 10 1/2C in rim and cup size. I have noticed lately,that some like me are returning to their Bach roots. haHa Good luck. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Fleebat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2058 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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John! Dood! Thanks so much. I sincerely hope this doesn't compromise your secret identity or make any of your covert activities more dangerous!
Seriously, thanks, John.
RR |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome.
I have hesitated to put that link up, because many of the mouthpiece scans there are completely inaccurate. Most of the Reeves 42 scans are pretty accurate there (the 42D and 42M are both bad), but the only scans in the 43 rims that look good to me are the 43ES and the 43B. The other two 43 scans (the 43 and the 43S) have rim shapes and "alpha angles" that are completely wrong. Note that while the 42M is an inaccurate scan, the 42MPT scan is fine (that's the piccolo trumpet mouthpiece scan). And since the only difference between a 42M and a 42MPT is in the backbore, one can use the 42MPT scan for comparison purposes as a 42M. There are other bad scans there as well that I can't name off the top of my head, but they're there. The scans are all based on mouthpieces customers brought in, and I think some of them had clearly been altered from stock.
So, anyone using this comparator should keep all this in mind.
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
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