Bach 10.5C (10 1/2) equivalents

[John Mohan]

[Fleebat]

John,

Yes, I had noticed some of that. The Bach 10 1/2C, for example (which, per other comparisons, seems to be pretty accurate) matches up almost perfectly with the Warburton 4 (MC, etc.). Anyone who's played - even seen - both knows that they're very different. I have both, and can say they're not even close. The W4MC is much closer to a 3C.

Thanks again for posting that. Even with its ticks, it represents a lot of work on Jim's part and is still very useful, I think.

RR

[Fleebat]

"If you ever refer to me as "Dood" again, I'll reach up your bell and pull your tongue through your horn."

Ha! See? All that medical training has paid off! I am not going to assume that this suggests advocacy of a "tongue forward" approach.

(Actually, that was meant as a term of respect! In my little world, "dood" is reserved for the good guys. "Dude" doesn't seem to be a good fit for me, as I have never surfed and haven't lived off my parents in about 37 years.)

RR

[lipshurt]

hello trent
So the gustat cup that you tried was enlarged proportionally to get it to a 3C (655) diameter. That roughly makes it about equally deeper as it is wider (it has about a 22 degree alpha angle, you can do the math in your head).
That keeps the sound and vibe the same for most people. I will say that by the time you get out to a 3C diameter, the cup could be a little too deep for some players. The gustat starts out at about 635, and it works real good as a 645. I actually have never sold more than one or two 655J1 pieces. That probably says that the cup shape works in a range from about 625-645 (645 is basically a 5C diameter)

That 635 diameter size is the same as a yamaha shew lead. That is a great mouthpiece and for some reason that shape projects out to a 3C diameter pretty well, and keeps the same sound and vibe and works for people up to a 3C diameter. I've never sold one bigger though, have made quite a few 655 (3C) L1 pieces.

I would say that if you downsize to a 645, or 635 you get more options as to what cup shapes will work for you. You for instance would probably have a totally different reaction to the gustat cup. A 10 1/2C size usually is about 635. I have measured one that was 625 (wait that was a curry 10 1/2) and also made a copy for a guy who had one that 645.

The marcienkewicz shew's are about 625.

Bach sizes make little sense. The 5, 6, 7, are all kind bunch together at about 645, but with different rim contours and cup shapes. Then you hit 10 1/2 at 635-ish.

Check it out...right now I'm working on projecting the Al Cass 1 (625 diameter) out to the bigger diameters. It looks like it will make a nice jazz cup. And I think it will go about to 655 pretty successfully. I'll call that my J4 I guess. It's not really much like the gustat shape, It has more room at the top, and a little shallower at the bottom of the cup. I think it will have more zing than the gustat. I do love the warm sound and easy upper register of the gustat though:)

I also projected the basic 3C down to smaller diameters. That might be something to check out too... projecting down in size is easy on CAD but way hard at the manual machine. Projecting up in size is pretty easy on the manual machine as well as CAD.

Have a good one

DOug M
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[John Mohan]

[Fleebat]

Sounds like a job for SKYPE 3-D!

Definitely extra credit for the use of "Au contraire." Kinda helps balance out the references we see here to "ombashure."

RR

[John Mohan]

[DrDave]

Hi Trent,

Right now I am in the middle of filling out my Standard Brand line of mouthpieces, some of which I will have with me at the NTC. The Standard Brand line is based on scans of some of the most popular mouthpieces adapted to have a Wedge rim. It is intended to simplify Wedge mouthpiece selection for those who really like their current mouthpiece but would like better over all performance.

The Bach 10.5 will be included in the line. I have specific formulas for adding just enough cup depth to compensate for the volume loss caused by the lateral dip (which differs form one cup depth to another), and for finding the right relationship between the stock rim and Wedge rim dimensions in order to keep the feel familiar in terms of size. In shallow pieces I also adjust the alpha angle. The final result is a mouthpiece that will out perform the original when used by a player for whom the Wedge rim is a good biomechanical match to their setup.

I have not made a Bach 10.5C yet, but I will do one with a standard rim and bring it along with me. It will not be in SST, but if you like it we can talk about making you one. If you have a 10.5C that you particulary like I can scan that cup and use it for the basis of the custom piece.

Cheers,
Dave
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Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[TrentAustin]

Dr. Dave,

You are my hero! Do you find people playing smaller Wedge pieces in general staying on the same rim diameter? I've always felt that the Wedge 3 rim feels like a bit narrower than a new Bach 3c ..

Now I can't wait for the NTC! I'll send you an email to chat a bit more about this.

Thanks! T
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[yankeesstink]

Yamaha 7B4.

Just a tad bigger, but the same good feel.
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Harrelson Bravura Bb & C Trumpets
Blessing B154-RT Flugelhorn
Yamaha YTR-6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha YCR-2330 Cornet
1970's Olds Recording Trumpet
Various Olds Ultratone "G" Bugles

[DrDave]

Hi Trent,

The mean diameter of the Wedge 3C is actually very close to a Bach 3C, depending on the 3C. I scanned a Bach 3C yesterday and the contour was so close to a Wedge 3C cup that I am not sure it is even worth making a Wedge version of it. The two would be very close to identical. Your 3C is a bit smaller than a 3CC, which feels very close to the Bach, because the cushion rim on the 3CC adds 6/1000" to the diameter.

Regarding rim size, the oval shape of the Wedge and variable rim width makes comparisons of size complicated. The Wedge acutally feels as though it grows or shrinks in size compared to a conventional rim depending on whether you concentrate on the top/bottom or side rims while you try to feel the size. Try it and see what I mean.

In additon the subjective size of a rim depends on many factors, including radius, alpha angle, and even cup depth and throat as soon as you start playing. In general a mouthpiece with a wider OD will feel bigger than one with a smaller OD, even with the same ID.

Many players do down size because that can get just as fat a sound and lower register using a slightly smaller Wedge, but it depends on what the player is try to achieve with the mouthpiece change.

I always try to get players to not think about how big a mouthpiece feels. Such sensations are all relative, and very maleable. Play a larger mouthpiece for a day and your old faithful suddenly feels small. What is more important is how the mouthpiece plays. If it plays too small it will have a small sound (also relative, and always a compromise), and will cause problems with choking off with lip swelling, poor flexibility (especially into the lower register), and air balls at the extremes of range (more pronounced down low). These are some of the cues that the lower limit of optimal size has been crossed. This is also a variable limit, as many players can learn to manage a smaller size if are willing to accept some compromises in certain areas. If the narrower diameter and deeper cup of the 10.5C size offers some advantages for prolonged jazz soloing I say go for it. I doubt that anyone is going to complain that your sound is too small.

Cheers,
Dave
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www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[cjl]

[chapahi]

[TrentAustin]

Thanks guys!

I am having the good Doctor whip up some custom mpcs for me and will keep you posted on the progress he makes.

Cheers,
T
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[Mark Bradley]

[KerryK]

Have any of you ever opened up the throat of the Bach 10 1/2? I seem to be getting a little to much resistance when I'm going for a really big sound
_________________
Kerry H Kirkley

[ljazztrm]

Trent I am just on my BlackBerry right now and see some really heavyweights and great guys like Doug Teeter and Dave Harrison are giving you advice. But I would just say u may also want to pick up a warburton 6sv top in Warbonite and screw it in only 1/4 of the way into a 6-8 warburton backbore. You'll get the high range aand endurance support and a little 'late Chet air in your sound' Best. Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[philosofriend]

I've played on 10 1/2 C and 10 1/4 C mouthpieces. They were older ones (fifties and sixties) by Bach and Blessing. They all felt like the mouthpiece maker was trying to hit a sweet spot combining a big tone with easy high notes and endurance. Ones with the same markings from the same maker were noticeably different.
Some say that Clifford Brown played one of these. The fat relaxed tone he gets, plus his flexible range and endurance seem to be what the 10 1/2 C was trying to get. I agree with the poster who mentioned jazz and endurance.
I play a Blessing 13 (slightly smaller throat) for my amateur jazz adventures, but I carry a Blessing 10 1/2 C in my case. If I'm recording and the 13 sounds thin I grab the 10 1/2 C.

[Comeback]

Welcome to TH, KerryK!

Not sure you guys noticed, or if it should make a difference, but KerryK revived a thread here from 2010.

Jim

[ljazztrm]

That's outrageous! Trents probably been through 100 mouthpiece switches since then! Unlike me...
Hahahaha!!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com