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Favorite valve blocks & characteristics?


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Favorite Valve Blocks
Bach
20%
 20%  [ 14 ]
Getzen
25%
 25%  [ 17 ]
Yamaha
5%
 5%  [ 4 ]
Olds
8%
 8%  [ 6 ]
Schilke
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Baurenfeind
31%
 31%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 67

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jvand678
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Favorite valve blocks & characteristics? Reply with quote

I'm planning on having Cliff Blackburn build an Eb/D on a Bach Strad valve cluster I've got and wanted to know some tendencies that you guys have noticed in different valve blocks. Are there any out there that tend to be a little brighter, darker, more core, less core, etc....? let's keep it apples to apples in terms of bore sizes if possible

I know there's a guy out there that is building a lot on the Olds blocks and a lot of custom builders are using Baurenfeind.

What do y'all think?

Joe
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe,

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but if there's anyone out there who would be capable of answering your question it would be Mr. Blackburn.
I might be wrong, but I can imagine he'd be able to build and fine-tune an instrument to your liking around any of the blocks you've just mentioned, as long as they're in perfect shape. He might have his personal preferences though.

MvW.


Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough call. I like the Bach valve block sound, dislike monel. I like the Olds offset 2nd valve for ergonomic reasons. I like the durability of the Bauerfiend. Now if only someone could pull them all off at the same time.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Owning six Schilke trumpets, among other including Bach, Con, Getzen and Benge, I have to say that hands down, the Schilkes are the easiest to maintain and always reliable. Certainly, of the monel sets out there, Schilke seemed to get everything right, at least it was so when he was still alive and involved in the process down on S Wabash. My only real complaint about Bach is that the pistons inevitably grow yellow-brown stains on them over time and it must be removed or they hang up, always at the worst possible time. One of the Conns has the same problem and it's also evident on many of my student's instruments.

It also may be some sort of "felt" illusion (if there is such a thing), but the length of the stroke seems a tiny bit shorter on the Schilkes than my Bachs. I also like the hexagonal flats on the upper/lower caps for those times when things seem to get stuck, so easy to remove, those should be standard on anything that turns (screws) on and off.
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mellzey
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being a strictly Blackburn guy myself, your best bet is to call Cliff and chat for a while. He is doing conversions on some Eb's. If the valves are a pro-line valve section and in good shape, he can work miracles. I've spent a great deal of time with him and have talked about this very topic. He has done Bb and C conversions on Bach, Yamaha, Getzen and Stomvi. He can work with most anything. But, for Eb, you'll need to call and chat. (I agree with Maarten van Weverwijk. Call and have a conversation.)

Whatever you decide on doing, you will not be disapointed. Cliff is one of the finest trumpet makers out there. He will do what is best for you. It is his goal to make the best instrument for YOU! Best of luck!
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mellzey wrote:
Being a strictly Blackburn guy myself, your best bet is to call Cliff and chat for a while. He is doing conversions on some Eb's. If the valves are a pro-line valve section and in good shape, he can work miracles. I've spent a great deal of time with him and have talked about this very topic. He has done Bb and C conversions on Bach, Yamaha, Getzen and Stomvi. He can work with most anything. But, for Eb, you'll need to call and chat. (I agree with Maarten van Weverwijk. Call and have a conversation.)

Whatever you decide on doing, you will not be disapointed. Cliff is one of the finest trumpet makers out there. He will do what is best for you. It is his goal to make the best instrument for YOU! Best of luck!


I have talked to Cliff & will actually be out to see him while he's at your school in a few weeks. We have yet to determine if were going to build the ML bore Eb or M bore Eb. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to regret using the Bach valves. Thanks to all of you guys for the help!
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mellzey
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice! We look forward to having you here! I personally don' think you're making a mistake with Bach valves. My Eb is the ML with the MD19A24S bell. It is a great instrument with both a delicate and bigger sound than a smaller one. Good for solo and ensemble work.

Again, looking forward to having you out. Should be an exciting event! He will have several horns here for you to try.

ME
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
...My only real complaint about Bach is that the pistons inevitably grow yellow-brown stains on them over time and it must be removed or they hang up...

I've never had that problem with a Bach, but my Yamahas get it all the time especially since they get far less regular use (Eb tpt, C picc and Flügel).
In my cupboard Yamaha valves tend to get stains and "freeze" quicker than others when storing an instrument for several months. I've started storing them with Hetman #3 or key-oil that I work down with ordinary valve oil whenever I need the instrument; it does the trick for me without gunking up.

Sorry for the bend-off,
MvW.
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ford850
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten is right.....

You should ask Cliff and your answers to his questions will determine his recommendation of what to use.
I had Charlie Melk build me a couple of Eb conversions and he wanted to know the sound I was after and then he made his equipment suggestions…..one was built on a Bach and the other on an Olds…..
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If cost is no option go new! Poor guys like me take Olds Valves and rebuild them and use them because Getzen will not sell us the occasional valve assembly when we want to build an occasional horn. If I could afford to go Bauerfiend I would do it in a mad minute.

Bauerfiend has a lot more mass so I would expect that anything attached to them would work better. I think the idea of different weight valve assemblies like light weight ones for light weight bells and heavy ones for Heavy bells and such is backward 18th century thinking. Almost all of your custom horn makers use a single weight valve assembly for all of their creations it is usually just the OEM's that have more then one weight and I thinkit is all marketing. I mean once you own one of each bell how do you keep selling those people more trumpets? Since you can select material and other specifications and they are new that is the way I would go if money was not the issue! Using a used Bach,Olds or other valve assembly that might have more wear or some other flaw not easily seen......Plus why buy an old Olds spend $360-$400 to get the valves rebuilt when you can just by the best in the first place.....Plus their is bragging rights. My 11 year has Olds Valve Assemblies many have Bach or Getzen but how many have Bauerfiend it is a much shorter list and I doubt many 11 years olds have them?

Finally to the original point I think that any competent builder is going to be able to fine tune his general parts to any valve assembly he use's. Many have switched from one brand to another on more then one occasion many started off using used valve assemblies from other OEM's so this is nothing new. So I would buy the best made unit with the best fit and finish and the best materials and the best design!

As to the characteristic of each just play one! The valve assembly is not just the junction point for all the tubes......According Research that was quoted to me by another member Research done by Conn I think it was found that if you took say Conn parts and assembled them on a Benge valve assembly it would have a lot of the Benge characteristic take those same parts put them on a Bach valve assembly and it played more like a Bach and so on.....Point being that the valve assembly is not just a place to meter air and join up the parts it has a significant impact on how it will play as does every thing added to or left off the horn.

So keep the above in mind. I would go Nickel Silver or Stainless Steel as my first two choices for piston material and everything else would be second to those two.
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cjl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why all the discussion about what valve block should be used when the OP clearly stated that he was having his horn built using Bach valves?

I think that he is just asking the question about the characteristics of certain sets just out of curiosity.

Also, unless I'm seriously mistaken, Blackburn valves are monel.

-- Joe
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjl wrote:
Why all the discussion about what valve block should be used when the OP clearly stated that he was having his horn built using Bach valves?

I think that he is just asking the question about the characteristics of certain sets just out of curiosity.

That's pretty much what he asked in the original post. He asked the question - and the poll - and started the discussion.

Personally, based on valves alone and not taking into consideration the total tonal horn package, I'd go with:

Top two: Getzen and Schilke (very close)
Pretty Good: Olds
Good: Bach
Hopefully Ok after several years: Yamaha

I've no experience with Baurenfeind, but stainless steel valves sound like an excellent proposition.

Of course, you DO have to take into consideration that tonal aspects of each in order to create the sound, feel, and tone that you want.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no experience with Bauerfiend but I am contact with people that build horns and flugels with them. Then you have those that offer them and have collaboration models with monel valves and they say the same thing and that is Bauerfiend in stainless is the best their is.....So I am going by their word since many of my conversations are off the record through my Gmail email address for total privacy!

Getzen does make a nice product but the fact they will sell to some people and not me and then lie about it and give me the run around really chaps my hide. I hate being lied to and I hate double standards. That is just me. So I am actually undecided right now if I am going to ban Getzen products in my house which at this point would include trumpets,flugels and trombones because of their actions. The multiples run around lies and stories that do not match from one person is what really has me chapped.....If you do not want to sell to me do not tell me 3 different things int he course of a 5 minute phone call and do not try passing the buck when you catch yourself in your own lies or mis-information etc......I value my time too and hate it being wasted. On the other hand they do make a nice products. Too bad they where not more like Kanstul in their sales department and customer relations.

As to the Olds they are world class when in nice properly rebuilt of like new unused condition etc.....In fact no matter how worn an Olds valve assembly has been I have never ran into one that would not go up and down and not stick assuming the case was not sprung. Every bit as good as the best thing Getzen turns out. The problem as I see it though is that according one person a Getzen new valve assembly will only set you back $175 you can not get an Olds rebuilt for that. In fact the honing tool from Feerre's is $150 alone. Ask me how I know.....LOL I am too poor to buy high end valve assemblies from the few places that might sell me one!LOL So I have to rebuildolds valve assemblies.....I hone my bores myself then I have Anderson plate and hone the pistons to my specifications. I end up with a great product but it is not the way I would prefer to go.

You would never catch me useing a Bach valve assembly unless I had a bunch of Bach's sitting in my closet at home collecting dust. THey cost too much to buy a trumpet like a Bach just for it's valve assembly and if the valves are shot the Bach replacment valves are far too expensive for what you get and you still have to hone them out some as well putting the cost too high.

Some companies that use Monel will hone them down get them plated up and honed to size for those that just hate monel. John did that for one of the member's on here onhis COpper Calichio.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
Getzen does make a nice product but the fact they will sell to some people and not me and then lie about it and give me the run around really chaps my hide. I hate being lied to and I hate double standards. That is just me. So I am actually undecided right now if I am going to ban Getzen products in my house which at this point would include trumpets,flugels and trombones because of their actions. The multiples run around lies and stories that do not match from one person is what really has me chapped.....If you do not want to sell to me do not tell me 3 different things int he course of a 5 minute phone call and do not try passing the buck when you catch yourself in your own lies or mis-information etc......I value my time too and hate it being wasted. On the other hand they do make a nice products. Too bad they where not more like Kanstul in their sales department and customer relations.

I though this was covered pretty well in a previous thread. I though Brett's explanation on the previous thread was solid. If you've got a rebuttal to it, perhaps you should start a thread about it elsewhere (like Reveille) and point out this "mis-information."

Feel free to sell your banned Getzen products to me. I'm sure I can deal with their customer service.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:


So I am actually undecided right now if I am going to ban Getzen products in my house which at this point would include trumpets,flugels and trombones because of their actions. The multiples run around lies and stories that do not match from one person is what really has me chapped.....If you do not want to sell to me do not tell me 3 different things int he course of a 5 minute phone call and do not try passing the buck when you catch yourself in your own lies or mis-information etc......I value my time too and hate it being wasted. On the other hand they do make a nice products. Too bad they where not more like Kanstul in their sales department and customer relations.


LMAO and ROTFL - I'm sure the good folks at Getzen are really gonna lose a lot of sleep over the fact that some little nobody like you isn't going to fill their house with their horns especially since you mention in every other paragraph of your many diatribes that you don't have any cash anyway.

Now - It's off you go little man and back under the rock from whence you crawled out from under.
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nordlandstrompet
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear James T.

I don't get the point why you are slamming all these fine makers. All the time!
I've read numerous of your posts, and most all of them are just theorethical guessings.
There is no evidence that you have done any trumpet building activity at all.
No pictures and no sound clips.
So why you are calling and e-mails these folks are far beyond my comprehension,
when you are not going to buy anything, just use their time on nothing.

Bauerfeind (correct spelling) valve blocks are delivered in two different set ups.
"Those that offer them and have collaboration models with monel valves" has built
4 horns with Bauerfeind valves for me, Chicago Lite & Phat Freddie with standard blocks,
Chicago X-Lite with light block, and Phat Boy with .413 Flugel block.

I have visited this particular trumpet smith and seen how the blocks
are assembled with the slides.

Bauerfeind is well known for high quality, and could very well be the best valve block ever made.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the response that Brett Getzen gave in another thread per Capt. pitiful rant.

"So I did a little checking about incoming calls from yesterday. Someone called and talked to Mary about buying 1 valve section for a trumpet they were building for someone. Mary told him (he didn't give a name) that we generally don't sell single valve sections (which we don't). As is standard procedure, she told him that he would have to talk to Jim Stella, our plant manager, about it. The same thing that guys like Roy Lawler have to do. She asked if he wanted to be transferred to Jim and the caller said no that he already knew his name. Considering the fact that the caller mentioned Kanstul a few times during the call I would guess this is Capt's call.

So maybe someone can tell me where the rude/lies part of the call happened. The fact is, if you call looking for one valve section you aren't going to get it. We don't sell them like that. Just like if you called us looking to buy one trumpet we wouldn't sell it to you. We are not a retail sales/parts supplier, we are a manufacturer. We don't supply parts to just anyone that wants to build a trumpet. Just like we don't build branded trumpets for anyone that wants their own line. We have been approached and turned the offer down several times. You may not like it, but that is our business plan. I hardly think that equals bad customer service. If I went to KFC and asked for ten pounds of raw chicken so I could try to make my own fried chicken they would tell me no. That's just the way it is.

Brett Getzen"
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sunburstbasser
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the choices given, I like Schilke valves best. I've played a single horn with Baurfiend valves and it was very nice.

While I'm not a huge fan of the way the typical Bach Strad plays, I don't recall ever having a problem with the valves on any that I've played, nor on the TR200 that uses the same valve block as I understand.

Do different valve blocks actually have a big difference in sound or blow? I have felt the difference under my fingers between different builders, but I've never played a horn and thought "This is too bright, a Brand X valve block would fix that."
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again all for the continued discussion.

I did say that I had a set of Bach valves that I was sending in. My poll was to see what everyone else was digging on. My Laskey has Bauerfiends (sorry for the misspelling!) and the valves are quite nice (pretty sure they're monel BTW). However, I care less about the maintenance of the valve than the sound of the block.

As I said before, I have talked to Cliff and will talk to him much more before the big shipping day. I knew there were a couple of others on here who had custom built horns using different valve sections (possibly tried a few others before making the decision) and would personally know differences differences. This is what I'm digging for!

thanks again,

Joe
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not read his rebuttal but being lied to openly with 3 different statement that conflict with each other really is not something I think one can have a good rebuttal too.

I am super nice in person I seldom even raise my voice when upset. I did not even confront the person on the phone about lieing to me... She caught herself and got all flustered so again I was super polite and did not even call her on this since she caught herself.....Mary has been working their for some time I would expect her to know their policies and I asked for sales right away.

It is never acceptable to lie to a customer when their was no need for it at all. If you cannot be honest about a matter then best to say nothing at all.

A simple No sorry we do not sell to the public is all that was needed. Why bother have me talk to Jim if the answerer is no and why would she tell me their was a minimum number to purchase but not know the number.....She truly was all over the place. I understand we all have a bad day but keep in mind this is a case of more of the same. The only difference was it was over the phone instead of email!LOL

I think that a companies track record of being rude, not helpful in emails or over the phone and lieing to a person or giving them the run around is important information to know about a company before doing business with them. Everyone that works for Getzen and deals with people is an Ambassadors for the company and their actions will always be deemed to be the general policy and way in which the company conduct's itself! I do not want to buy a product from people that are not going to treat me well after the sale. I should be able to call anytime and should not expect to be given the run around or given multiple version of the truth. I am not into "sometimes, never,maybe" problems when it comes to a simple question about the price and availability of a .462 Valve assembly for a C trumpet....

I will have to go read this rebuttal as I had no idea that lieing to customer's and being rude to them and giving them the run around was some how explainable.
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