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Roger Ingram Model Jupiter XO Trumpet 1600I


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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok,

I tried a Jupiter 1600i here in Brazil.
Only one store in São Paulo had it in stock.

It was brand new, out of the box.

The model was correctly engraved on the leadpipe (1600I TAIWAN), it came with and extra tuning slide (round) and the little silver box kit.

The funny thing was the engraving on the bell.
There was just "XO" engraved. No "flowers" around it.

...and, actually, I didn't like the way it played.

I felt it blew too thin and a bit stuffy. And I'm used to medium/small bore horns (I used to play a S bore Martin Dansant that was just lovely).

That got me thinking about this particular horn....
Was there ever an early "BETA" version of the 1600i that came with a different bell engraving?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
Ok,

I tried a Jupiter 1600i here in Brazil.
Only one store in São Paulo had it in stock.

It was brand new, out of the box.

The model was correctly engraved on the leadpipe (1600I TAIWAN), it came with and extra tuning slide (round) and the little silver box kit.

The funny thing was the engraving on the bell.
There was just "XO" engraved. No "flowers" around it.

...and, actually, I didn't like the way it played.

I felt it blew too thin and a bit stuffy. And I'm used to medium/small bore horns (I used to play a S bore Martin Dansant that was just lovely).

That got me thinking about this particular horn....
Was there ever an early "BETA" version of the 1600i that came with a different bell engraving?


They decided that no engraving gave the XO brand a cleaner look. I also think it saves on manufacturing costs. Maybe that's negligible.

I play this daily... It's far from thin! My regular mouthpiece worked off the bat too. Friends used to large bores also liked it. Maybe try a different piece? And maybe it's just not for you! I trust you tried both slides?

For me it took a minute to find the pitch centre and the slide was quite a hit further out. Maybe you are lipping the pitch expecting a normal slide pull and not noticing? Hard to say. I only offer ideas as I can't imagine this horn sounding thin!
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houdini1313
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody is different, but at least you tried the horn and can move on. I have found the horn to be very versatile, BUT the horn is very mouthpiece sensitive. And that is fine for me, as most gigs I play require one setup to play the material (church setup with round slide, heavyweight classical piece, or lead on a musical D slide with lead piece, etc).

I was also surprised mine did not have the engraving when I got it, but I like the clean look now that I have had the horn a while.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

houdini1313 wrote:
Everybody is different, but at least you tried the horn and can move on. I have found the horn to be very versatile, BUT the horn is very mouthpiece sensitive. And that is fine for me, as most gigs I play require one setup to play the material (church setup with round slide, heavyweight classical piece, or lead on a musical D slide with lead piece, etc).

I was also surprised mine did not have the engraving when I got it, but I like the clean look now that I have had the horn a while.


I agree it is mouthpiece sensitive. I think mine worked as my previous horn - Conn 60B was very resistant and I had my gear dialled in for that. I also only really play commercial and jazz. Occasionally gigs with a little more subtly on my behalf. I find it works well for me. Like yourself it is one setup with very rare deviation.
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
Ok,

I tried a Jupiter 1600i here in Brazil.
Only one store in São Paulo had it in stock.

It was brand new, out of the box.

The model was correctly engraved on the leadpipe (1600I TAIWAN), it came with and extra tuning slide (round) and the little silver box kit.

The funny thing was the engraving on the bell.
There was just "XO" engraved. No "flowers" around it.

...and, actually, I didn't like the way it played.

I felt it blew too thin and a bit stuffy. And I'm used to medium/small bore horns (I used to play a S bore Martin Dansant that was just lovely).

That got me thinking about this particular horn....
Was there ever an early "BETA" version of the 1600i that came with a different bell engraving?


Mine has only the "XO," no other engraving.

Which tuning crook did you use? Were the little "nodes" in the horn?

JL
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my Jupiter XO 1600i about a week ago, and this horn just keeps getting better.

I'm not sure I've ever played a better trumpet, and mine doesn't seem to be too mouthpiece sensitive. Every mouthpiece I tried focused well enough although some were better than others. I have three Warburton KT backbores for my lead setup - the standard KT, the DKT, which seats a touch deeper, and the EKT, which seats even deeper. My preference was for the standard KT.

As for a legit mouthpiece, I actually ended up settling on the XO 3C that was in the case - it seems to work well with it.

I have not tried the nodal stabilizers or the brass valve guides, but I have fiddled with the flat finger buttons, (I prefer the mother-of-pearl buttons) I've fiddled a bit with a heavy cap on the 3rd valve, and I tried the rounded tuning slide - I prefer the squared slide because it slots better with that one.

I'm running mine pretty much stock, and that seems to be working pretty well. I think that this is probably a pretty good all-around trumpet, although I haven't tried it in a legit setting yet.
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houdini1313
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trickg,

Glad you are liking the horn. It is worth the time to mess around with the accessories included with the horn. I love how the horn plays without the nodal stabilizers, prefer brass>plastic valve guide, square tuning slide (rounded is nice for legit gigs, did my first gig with the horn at Easter and it sounded great) and kept whatever springs came with the horn. I had the valves aligned and used the metal finger buttons, but that is just out of personal look preference. Let us know what you find works best for you!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point in the future I might try some more of the accessories - right now I want to wring it out a bit as a stock trumpet and take it from there.

A question on the valve alignment - who did it and did it help? This horn is so good, I can't imagine a valve alignment doing much for it.

I'm not sure which springs are in this one - this was a demo horn, so it's possible the light springs are in it, but I doubt it - the valve action doesn't seem soft at all.
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, congrats on the horn-I have one too and they're really great horns.

In regards to getting a valve adjustment, while I've had it done on most my horns, including my main horn and really liked it, I'm also a firm believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Either way, enjoy the Jupiter!
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houdini1313
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Valve in Chicago did my alignment, I have all my hirns aligned because I like the feel and consistency of non felt pads. So while the alignment was close (2nd valve was off) now it has solid pads that keep it in perfect alignment.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had one for quite a long time. I guess technically I've had two of them, since the first one (bought in early 2011) had the "lacquer issue" that was discussed pretty widely here and other places back at the time. Roger helped get me in touch with Brent Rosborough at Jupiter and they ended up just replacing the horn entirely with another one. I think the one I have now is actually older (looking at serial number data) than the one I bought originally, but had been refinished and came to me looking brand new, and identical in design appearance (including the engraving) to the first one I had.

It definitely wasn't a "prototype" but does look substantially different than the ones being sold today. On the mouthpiece receiver, it says "JTR-1600I" in large letters, with "Taiwan" below it in smaller letters. The bell engraving is a floral pattern (not particularly large or ornate, and not running all over the bell, just wrapped around the logo, consisting of a quite large "XO" in cursive, with "Jupiter" quite small underneath. The amount of bell with engraving on it is only 3-4" in size, and only on the top of the bell around the logo. Nothing like the ornate engraving you would find on an Olds, or even a Shires today.

I keep going back and forth with this horn. I love the way it plays from behind the bell. It's a comfortable amount of resistance, it plays well in tune, and I don't ever have any sensation that I'm playing on a "small bore" or "tight" horn at all. That said, everybody, and I do mean everybody that I come in contact with prefers the sound I get out of my other main Bb more, which is an old 1980 Bach 37.

I have played it in a number of groups off and on, sometimes for months at a time. On several occasions, I decided to switch and bring the old Bach with me to a rehearsal instead. Every time I did that, I would have multiple people (without prompting from me) come up afterward and tell me how better I sounded that day when I had the Bach in my hand instead.

The Bach feels like more work when I'm on it, but out in front of the bell, people like what they hear more. I can't explain it really, but confess it has made me leave the XO at home almost all of the time now. I wish it were otherwise, as I feel like I'm not working as hard on the XO, but I can't get away from people (not even trumpet players) just coming up out of the blue and telling me I sound better when I'm on the Bach. There is something not as ... 'meaty' in the sound. I don't know what it is, or why it matters so much out front, but it does.

Honestly not trying to start a war here, as I really enjoy the horn and was very impressed about Jupiter XO's response to the original lacquer issue. The valves are great and keep getting better, it's a really nice trumpet. I just can't get past what I related above.

On more than one occasion lately, I've wondered what a frankenhorn experiment with a Bach bell on the XO would be like, but that just seems like a rat hole best avoided.
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638skibum
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Jupiter vs. Bach Reply with quote

I've experienced the same thing when shifting between horns on gigs. I even had one leader tell me to leave the new horn home & use the old one.( In this case, an Olds ).
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Jupiter vs. Bach Reply with quote

638skibum wrote:
I've experienced the same thing when shifting between horns on gigs. I even had one leader tell me to leave the new horn home & use the old one.( In this case, an Olds ).

So much for the old, "I sound like me, no matter what horn I play," thing.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm looking at my 1600i tonight, trying to figure out what it is that makes this thing tick, and I noticed something I thought was interesting.

The internet descriptions mention 2 things that stand out about the Roger Ingram Jupiter that I thought were interesting - one is the bell ferrule, which is described as an "enhanced bell ferrule" and the other mentions the heavy bead on the bell. I don't know if there's more to the bell ferrule than meets the eye, but it's clearly longer than the typical bell ferrule - I didn't get out any kind of measuring tool, but it appears to be about 1.75 inches long, which is a good bit longer than the typical bell ferrule that is about 1/2 of an inch.

But what was really interesting was the bell bead. I could be wrong about this, but I always thought that the bell bead on a horn was that the edge of the bell was rolled back over the top of a brass wire and then soldered - with the French bead, it's wrapped over a flat wire, or a semi-circle wire, thus giving the bead a different (usually flatter) contour.

The bell bead on the 1600i is intriguing in that I don't think it's rolled over - I think it's a specifically designed piece, and it is really sharp on the edge - it doesn't roll over at all. If it is rolled over, they've gone back over and ground that edge to a specific shape. (it's not 90 degrees)

I don't know if this is part of why the horn slots like it does, or if that's why this horn has the tone palette that it does, but I've never seen a bell bead like that before. That doesn't really mean much though - this kind of thing might be quite common for all I know.

I just thought that was interesting.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
So I'm looking at my 1600i tonight, trying to figure out what it is that makes this thing tick, and I noticed something I thought was interesting.

The internet descriptions mention 2 things that stand out about the Roger Ingram Jupiter that I thought were interesting - one is the bell ferrule, which is described as an "enhanced bell ferrule" and the other mentions the heavy bead on the bell. I don't know if there's more to the bell ferrule than meets the eye, but it's clearly longer than the typical bell ferrule - I didn't get out any kind of measuring tool, but it appears to be about 1.75 inches long, which is a good bit longer than the typical bell ferrule that is about 1/2 of an inch.

But what was really interesting was the bell bead. I could be wrong about this, but I always thought that the bell bead on a horn was that the edge of the bell was rolled back over the top of a brass wire and then soldered - with the French bead, it's wrapped over a flat wire, or a semi-circle wire, thus giving the bead a different (usually flatter) contour.

The bell bead on the 1600i is intriguing in that I don't think it's rolled over - I think it's a specifically designed piece, and it is really sharp on the edge - it doesn't roll over at all. If it is rolled over, they've gone back over and ground that edge to a specific shape. (it's not 90 degrees)

I don't know if this is part of why the horn slots like it does, or if that's why this horn has the tone palette that it does, but I've never seen a bell bead like that before. That doesn't really mean much though - this kind of thing might be quite common for all I know.

I just thought that was interesting.


My gut feeling is that the bead affects the sound more than the ferrule. Again just a gut feeling. Im still really enjoying playing this horn!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently the ferrule allows for a bigger gap between the valve casing an the bell, which is part of why this trumpet slots the way it does.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Apparently the ferrule allows for a bigger gap between the valve casing an the bell, which is part of why this trumpet slots the way it does.


Interesting!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the opportunity to gig this horn last Friday night, and I thought I'd post some impressions of how the gig went with it, and how I felt the horn played.

Overall, it was a great gig - I'm really going to enjoy using this trumpet in the future. There were a few things that popped up though, but I felt they were minor issues that will self-correct with a little more time - as of today, I've had this horn for just 2 weeks and a day, so I'm definitely still getting used to it.

My biggest worry was whether or not the sound was going to be copacetic. When I told my friend and bandleader that I got a new trumpet and that it had some different playing characteristics than the Schilke B6, he raised an eyebrow and was skeptical because he liked the sound of the Schilke.

We needn't have worried. Not only did the sound work well, it was probably even a step up from the Schilke, and I felt it was a better sound blend with the sax player. There's definitely a better center to the sound, but it's still bright enough to cut the way it needs to.

With that said, it wasn't a perfect gig. There are some intonation adjustments that I'm still working with - mainly differences between the intonation of the Schilke and the intonation of the 1600i. To name a couple of examples, on the Schilke, low E is SHARP - I always had to be cognizant of that because it was sharp enough I couldn't quite lip it far enough. I don't have that issue with the 1600i. On the 1600i, D above tuning C is a touch flat compared to the Schilke, which is pretty much right on the dot.

Regarding general intonation, i.e., being in tune with the band, I had a bit of a disconnect at the beginning of the gig, mainly due to not wanting to trust the difference between what my ear was hearing and what my eyes were seeing. I need to pull out on this trumpet quite a bit - like 3/4" or a touch more. I'm not used to that, so I was hesitant to pull the slide far enough to really get the horn centered up on the pitch, so for the first part of the gig I was lipping the pitch down a bit.

I also had some misses, although not nearly as many as I'd have had with the Schilke, and I attribute that to not really being fully assimilated to the horn, so I got bit a couple of times - nothing major though. On the flip side, we do Michael Jackson's "Dont' Stop 'til You Get Enough," and I have to pick off these C# hits. I NAILED all of them. I'm talking right in the middle with a tone that had some sizzle on it.

By the end of the gig, I was really getting a feel for it, and was really starting to dig the horn - my intonation and accuracy improved as the night went on.

There are a couple of tunes where I have to pick off what for me is an upper register note - I don't have much in the way of altissimo trumpet range, so we're only talking up to a 3rd ledger Eb. All of that was much more accurate. We do an Emotions medley that mixes "Best of My Love" and "Then Came You," and that has Ds that have to be picked off. I punched those so dead center it was almost funny. We do "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" by Whitney Houston. Toward the end is a section where I'm doing double octave quarter note hits between 1st ledger Bb and low Bb. Invariably with the Schilke I'll miss at least one of those upper Bbs. Not last night - I nailed them all. Going back to nailing those C# hits in the Michael Jackson tune, my bandleader actually turned around and grinned after I popped the first couple.

Ultimately I wound up having a great gig because by the time I'd settled into the horn in that context, my level of confidence rose because I was playing that much more accurately. It makes for a fun night when you aren't fighting with your chops or equipment.

I also had a chance to play this trumpet in a concert band setting this last week. With the right mouthpiece (in this case the XO 3C mouthpiece that was in the case when I got it) it has a round tone that blends well. It might be ever so slightly on the brighter side of the tone spectrum, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

This trumpet was a great purchase - I'm REALLY glad I took a chance on it.

I know I've raved and raved about this trumpet, and while not everyone is going to like it, I think everyone should take a crack at this trumpet at some point. I've never played another trumpet like it, and I'm really looking forward to gigging it and really working it in over the next couple of months.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that this thread is now 19 pages, maybe it was already addressed, (although I thought I did an ok job of reviewing the whole thread) but I did have a question of sorts regarding the Jupiter 1600i design.

I know that prior to his move to Jupiter, Roger Ingram played on a modded Schilke S42. The mods (at least according to what I've read) were put in place by Steve Winans aka "Doctor Valve" and this horn can actually be bought directly through Doctor Valve, known as a Schilke S42 Conversion.

So here's the question - how close to the S42 Conversion is the 1600i? Is the Jupiter 1600i a mass produced copy of of the Doctor Valve S42 Conversion?

I'm still digging this Jupiter though - I have two gigs this weekend and I'm looking forward to them!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Review Update:

So it would appear that I have a bit of a mouthpiece issue with this trumpet, and I'm not quite sure what to do to try to resolve it, but I like the playing characteristics well enough that I believe it's worth looking into.

So here's the deal - I'm generally sharp above my top line G, and I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure what I can do to alleviate that. It's sharp enough that even being aware of it, I can't really seem to lip it down, and it's not an issue that can be resolved with the tuning slide, because that makes me generally low if I'm playing in the staff. Right now I'm using a Warburton 4SVW with a KT backbore.

Some things I'm considering:

1.) Use the XONS - so far I'm not using those, and that might help to bring the pitch down a bit in my upper register.

2.) Change backbores on the 4SVW Warburton cup. I have a couple of ways I can go with this. I have a DKT backbore which seats a bit deeper. I'd wanted to try to keep the main KT bacbore though because I liked how the horn slotted using it. With that said, if I ride sharp for everything above F/G, slotting becomes secondary. I also have a straight 7 backbore I could try.

3.) Go back to my Schilke 14A4. While generally I've noticed that the pitch is a bit better, I'd wanted to avoid that mouthpiece because of the lack of bite on the inner rim. I went to the Warburton mouthpiece in the first place in an effort to try to bring some better accuracy to my playing with a mouthpiece that had a more defined inner rim.

4.) Combination of the above.

I'm totally open to suggestions, and thoughts from the crowd who uses this trumpet.

I'm headed to a local music store here in a bit to pick up a Snark clip on tuner, so I'll at least have an idea on the gig tonight what's going on with my pitch.
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