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John Mohan's Daily Practice Routine Journal


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BPL wrote:
My question has to do with Point 4.. the body's use of 02.

Given your medical background, I'm keen to hear your take on this. But first a quick rhetorical comment - I was up to 10 jogging, but had been doing it inconsistently throughout the day, and only "jogging on the spot"... you might say I was "phoning it in". I decided to redouble my efforts, and took to the pavement 8 days ago. I dropped it back to 8 jogging because I was finding the 02 deprivation frustrating and discouraging, and started doing all 5 sets in one session in the morning BEFORE starting the routine. (After 3 days, I noticed a DRAMATIC improvement in just about everything! The neighbours noticed it too.) Anyhow, I was getting to 5 cycles, then would have to stop, catch my breath while walking on the spot, then continue to 8, then stop again, then continue to 10. After 5 days, I was getting to 6 or 7, then continuing to 10. YESTERDAY I was able to go all the way to 10, without having to stop. I was amazed by how fast my use of 02 improved.

So here's my question:

Part 1.
It occurs to me that if we make an aerobic demand on our body while under slight 02 deprivation (as in the holding out phase of the cycle), then we might actually be accelerating the process of "getting fit". In other words, could this be a really good way for anyone to improve their V02 max? (for those unfamiliar with that term.. V02max = the maximum volume of 02 that the cells can take up from the blood, per minute, per kg of body weight.)

Part 2.
Are there any medical risks with this, ie; slight 02 deprivation while under aerobic demand?

Part 3.
In between sets, is it OK, in your opinion, to do some hyperventilation? Some big deep breathes.

Thanks

Brett


I worked up to jogging ten steps as a teenager, and was able to do it, but I was always fighting oxygen deprivation. In my opinion, oxygen deprivation is not a good thing and does not help develop muscles. It is also quite bad for the brain (alcohol has its effect on us mainly by decreasing oxygen use by the brain).

I do not recommend the jogging form of the breathing exercises. I believe that a trumpet player gets the most development in the area that a trumpet player needs development in (Air Power development, learning to be full and relaxed, blowing and relaxed, blowing when almost empty and relaxed) by doing the walking version of the breathing exercises.

Best wishes,

John
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Skip
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Exactly. I was typing while you were posting. I meant no harm. If you want me to delete it, I will. My post was just a down & dirty explanation. Nowhere as descriptive & accurate as yours.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skip wrote:
John,

Exactly. I was typing while you were posting. I meant no harm. If you want me to delete it, I will. My post was just a down & dirty explanation. Nowhere as descriptive & accurate as yours.


Oh gosh no! Leave it there. I'm sure there are a lot of people that would rather have it in a more concise form. Some of my writing tends to go on and on and on and...

Best wishes,

John
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Cunuckle Head
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Excellent thread. I am already learning much from it and have been able to revise my practice routine based on some of your comments. I also found this posting to be very helpful: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94017

Thanks for the help. I have benefitted greatly from the knowledge shared by you and a few other Claude Gordon students as I have work though Systematic Approach. The fact that you and many others are working so hard to share your experiences as his students is a testament to what a great man and teacher he must have been.

If I may, I would like to speak to one of BPL’s questions. As well as being a wannabe Jazz Trumpet Player, I am also a wannabe Marathon Runner so this question caught my attention:

BPL wrote:


Part 1.
It occurs to me that if we make an aerobic demand on our body while under slight 02 deprivation (as in the holding out phase of the cycle), then we might actually be accelerating the process of "getting fit". In other words, could this be a really good way for anyone to improve their V02 max? (for those unfamiliar with that term.. V02max = the maximum volume of 02 that the cells can take up from the blood, per minute, per kg of body weight.)


I will attempt to answer this question as a runner, not a trumpet player. VO2 Max is the maximum capacity one's body to transport and utilize oxygen during exercise. VO2 Max is effected by many varibles (Age, gender, altitude, BMI, . . . ). In running, to improve VO2 Max we do Speed Interval or Fartlec training (usually only once a week). Speed interval training involves running for a specific distance at a quite fast pace (10 to 30 seconds faster than your 5K pace) followed by a rest period, than you repeat a number of time. The idea is to get your heart rate up around 85 to 90 % Max for short periods of time. This has the effect over time of improving the bloods ability to absorb oxygen (I am not an exercise psychologist so I will not begin to explain how this works). It does amaze me how quickly I starts seeing improvements in VO2 Max when I do speed intervals.

So to answer your question, I do not think that doing the breathing exercise while placing an aerobic demand on your body would accelerate improved fitness or VO2 Max as VO2 Max is more cardiovascular than breathing. Doing the breathing exercise will improve your breathing efficiency which in the long run will help overall fitness, but I cannot see them accelerating the process. While I don’t think you were suggesting this, I did want to make the comment that I think that trying to do the breathing exercises while doing cardio exercise could be counter productive and for workouts like speed intervals it would be dangerous. When doing cardio workouts one should attempt to keep the breathing relax and natural; the human body is a tremendously efficient machine and it will make sure you get all the oxygen you can absorbe.

Sadly, as with trumpet playing, there are no short cuts to fitness. You think I’d learn that by now and stop looking.
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asndy1982
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
BPL wrote:
My question has to do with Point 4.. the body's use of 02.

Given your medical background, I'm keen to hear your take on this. But first a quick rhetorical comment - I was up to 10 jogging, but had been doing it inconsistently throughout the day, and only "jogging on the spot"... you might say I was "phoning it in". I decided to redouble my efforts, and took to the pavement 8 days ago. I dropped it back to 8 jogging because I was finding the 02 deprivation frustrating and discouraging, and started doing all 5 sets in one session in the morning BEFORE starting the routine. (After 3 days, I noticed a DRAMATIC improvement in just about everything! The neighbours noticed it too.) Anyhow, I was getting to 5 cycles, then would have to stop, catch my breath while walking on the spot, then continue to 8, then stop again, then continue to 10. After 5 days, I was getting to 6 or 7, then continuing to 10. YESTERDAY I was able to go all the way to 10, without having to stop. I was amazed by how fast my use of 02 improved.

So here's my question:

Part 1.
It occurs to me that if we make an aerobic demand on our body while under slight 02 deprivation (as in the holding out phase of the cycle), then we might actually be accelerating the process of "getting fit". In other words, could this be a really good way for anyone to improve their V02 max? (for those unfamiliar with that term.. V02max = the maximum volume of 02 that the cells can take up from the blood, per minute, per kg of body weight.)

Part 2.
Are there any medical risks with this, ie; slight 02 deprivation while under aerobic demand?

Part 3.
In between sets, is it OK, in your opinion, to do some hyperventilation? Some big deep breathes.

Thanks

Brett


I worked up to jogging ten steps as a teenager, and was able to do it, but I was always fighting oxygen deprivation. In my opinion, oxygen deprivation is not a good thing and does not help develop muscles. It is also quite bad for the brain (alcohol has its effect on us mainly by decreasing oxygen use by the brain).

I do not recommend the jogging form of the breathing exercises. I believe that a trumpet player gets the most development in the area that a trumpet player needs development in (Air Power development, learning to be full and relaxed, blowing and relaxed, blowing when almost empty and relaxed) by doing the walking version of the breathing exercises.

Best wishes,

John



You know I have pondered these same things, I have been jogging 10 for the past 6 months. On occasion, I have pushed myself to do an entire city block nonstop but the oxygen deprivation gave me headaches. With larger intervals of breathing you have to stop and rest when you feel discomfort. But I think this has helped me reach Double High C and even an occasional Double C# in the Pt. 2's.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asndy1982 wrote:
You know I have pondered these same things, I have been jogging 10 for the past 6 months. On occasion, I have pushed myself to do an entire city block nonstop but the oxygen deprivation gave me headaches. With larger intervals of breathing you have to stop and rest when you feel discomfort. But I think this has helped me reach Double High C and even an occasional Double C# in the Pt. 2's.


If you feel it's working for you, I hesitate to suggest you change your breathing exercise routine, but:

I would suggest you find an additional 20 minutes a day and do the walking breathing exercises at the 10 step level. Keep doing the jogging, but breath normally when jogging. Do this for two weeks and see how it effects your playing. You might be pleasantly surprised, as doing the walking exercises AND continuing to try to blow when empty will give your blowing muscles a bit more of a workout. And by continuing to jog but also breathing normally while you jog, you'll get the health benefits of normal jogging that might be healthier than what you get when jogging the breathing exercise.

Best wishes,

John
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Cunuckle Head
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asndy1982 wrote:

You know I have pondered these same things, I have been jogging 10 for the past 6 months. On occasion, I have pushed myself to do an entire city block nonstop but the oxygen deprivation gave me headaches. With larger intervals of breathing you have to stop and rest when you feel discomfort. But I think this has helped me reach Double High C and even an occasional Double C# in the Pt. 2's.


First of all, wow if you think that running has helped you reach a double high c, more power to ya. I know this is not a running forum, but running is my other passion so I cannot resist jumping in on this. First off, I think John's comments on breathing exercises while running are spot on, 100% correct, breath normally when running. If you are getting headaches due to oxygen deprivation when you push yourself to run a block, than don't. Stick to run/walk intervals and you will progress much faster with no ill effect. There are numerous excellent programs available on line that describe how to do this and I would highly recommend you look into those (Here is a pretty good one: http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml )
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asndy1982
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunuckle Head wrote:
asndy1982 wrote:

You know I have pondered these same things, I have been jogging 10 for the past 6 months. On occasion, I have pushed myself to do an entire city block nonstop but the oxygen deprivation gave me headaches. With larger intervals of breathing you have to stop and rest when you feel discomfort. But I think this has helped me reach Double High C and even an occasional Double C# in the Pt. 2's.


First of all, wow if you think that running has helped you reach a double high c, more power to ya. I know this is not a running forum, but running is my other passion so I cannot resist jumping in on this. First off, I think John's comments on breathing exercises while running are spot on, 100% correct, breath normally when running. If you are getting headaches due to oxygen deprivation when you push yourself to run a block, than don't. Stick to run/walk intervals and you will progress much faster with no ill effect. There are numerous excellent programs available on line that describe how to do this and I would highly recommend you look into those (Here is a pretty good one: http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml )



Hey thanks for the tips. I have been considering a running routine for sometime now as I tend to think that it would help my playing and breathing. When I started jogging 5 and more I noticed how out of shape I had become and doing these exercises have gotten me to a bit more active. The reason I like the jogging routines is that they give me a better workout in a shorter space of time and than walking. On a side note I noticed that the Physical Approach book only goes to jogging 7? I'm actually on Systematic approach on lesson 6 right now.
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BPL
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really fascinating to me. I am also a "runner", but have been off the wagon for a number of years (I miss it)... so the idea of merging 2 disciplines (trumpet and running) is attractive to me. In Clarke's book How I Became A Cornettist, he talks about practicing tonguing exercises while running.. has anyone done this?

I think I need to clarify one thing about my original question. I did specify "slight" 02 deprivation. I understand that it's silly to push yourself to the point of feeling distressed. I was thinking of runners from high altitudes, and how advantaged they are at lower altitude competitions... I guess it's kind of "off topic", really.

More relevant perhaps is the idea that the breathing discipline can enhance efficiency of "energy use" and therefore "02 use" (as opposed to aerobic efficiency at the cellular level). That is, by maintaining relaxation in muscles that don't need to be tense.

As with "embouchure talk", I guess it's possible to over think this stuff. If it works, why question it.. just keep doing it.

Brett
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BPL wrote:
In Clarke's book How I Became A Cornettist, he talks about practicing tonguing exercises while running.. has anyone done this?


Actually Brett, as I remember it, he described single tonguing (using the KTM method as it was called by Claude Gordon) 16th notes while walking to and from his theater job each day.

Best wishes,

John
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JonB
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
BPL wrote:
In Clarke's book How I Became A Cornettist, he talks about practicing tonguing exercises while running.. has anyone done this?


Actually Brett, as I remember it, he described single tonguing (using the KTM method as it was called by Claude Gordon) 16th notes while walking to and from his theater job each day.

Best wishes,

John


He also regularly practiced triple tonguing two sets of triplets per step while walking, if I remember correctly.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Change in Daily Routine as of May 3, 2010 Reply with quote

Change in Daily Routine


As I change the routine I plan to post the changes here. Last Monday, May 3rd, I moved on to the next level in my routine. Of note, I would recommend most players that choose to follow this routine stay on each "lesson" for two weeks (not just one as I might do from time to time). Otherwise it might build up too quickly and cause an over-practice condition.

Here is the current routine I am doing:


Continuing the Breathing Exercises every day, several times a day. Still on 6 steps (6 steps in, 6 steps full, 6 steps out, 6 steps continuing to blow though empty).

1) Irons' Groups 5, 5B, 6, 6B, 6C, 7, 8, 9 and 10 (added the 10th group this week).

The groups with letters at the end are my own modification of the normal, unlettered groups - basically there is an exercise at the end of Group 5 that is different than the previous 7 parts of Group 5. In the book, this last thing is only played with one valve combination. My "Group 5B" is basically this last exercise, but through all 7 valve combinations. My 6B is the same - it's the last little exercise of Group 6, but played through all 7 valve combinations as a separate group. Then, 6C, is the same as 6B, but I start one partial higher. Take a look at the book, read my explanation and you'll figure it out.

2) Clarke Technical Study #1 and Etude # 1, all K-tongued.

I am doing each of the Clarke exercises with one repeat, and the Etude with no repeat. Volume level is medium (not overblowing, but not holding back either). I get stronger on the higher notes and back off on the lower notes. I take the exercise as high as I can comfortably play them, which for me, means that I usually take them to an F above High C. Today (Wednesday) it was tempting to keep going beyond the F, it was so easy. But I resisted.

3) From Claude's "Daily Trumpet Routines" book: Lesson 3 and its models. Added this one this week. It's pretty short, but as you get deeper into the book, like everything else Claude assigns, it gets longer and longer.

At this point, I make sure to rest at least 45 minutes before doing the next routine.

4) Systematic Approach Lesson 3 Part 1: I take this down to Bb below Double Pedal C (I see no point in going lower). I make sure to really, really, really blow until even after I am empty to really work the Air Power muscles. Volume level is medium with an attempted crescendo as I run out of air. I don't overblow, but I don't hold back.

Rest 5 minutes

5) Systematic Approach Lesson 3 Part 2: I play these at a tempo of quarter note = 120, and I hold the top notes for about 7 to 9 beats. Stronger on the top notes, easier on the lower notes. I'm always getting to a full power, strong F# above High C. My G above High C has been strong and full power almost every day now. I've gotten to an admittedly weak Double C most days, but sometimes have ended around A above High C.

6) Systematic Approach Part 3 of Lesson 3 to relax lips after the high note routine. This is just a slow arpeggio going from middle C down to Pedal C. I do this three times, resting between each, then I do it one final, fourth time down to Double Pedal C.


I should mention I made a mouthpiece change yesterday (Tuesday). I had been playing on a Reeves 43 Rim with a CG Personal Underpart. I've now changed the Underpart to my Bach 3B with a #22 throat and a Symphonic Backbore. I did this because I might be doing an audition with a Concert Band at the end of the month, and I want to blend well with others who probably tend to play Bach mouthpieces. Nothing gives me a nice orchestral sound as well as a Bach mouthpiece does.

Cheers,

John


Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Back at it
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all such great stuff! I'm a comeback player who was, back in the day, advanced/intermediate level. I'm goping to be purchasing Irons flex exercises. John, your thread here and on the comeback forum is a great thing for me personally. I don't have access to a CG teacher where I now live so following along will be a great asset. Thanks so much for posting!!
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swthiel
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

Are you working on anything in addition to the technical things? Something from the back of the Arban book, or from Bousquet, Brandt, Charlier, Concone, Wurm, or similar?
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Cunuckle Head
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I am curious about Irons. I have been doing SA for a while now and picked up the Smith and Colin books on Flexibility. I have read from you and others that after publishing SA, Gordon started getting his students to use Irons. I have never seen the Irons book and was wondering what the differences were between it and Smith and Colin? Are there any merits to using it over Smith and Colin?
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I hope you don't mind me responding here since I presently have some time on my hands.

Earl D. Irons' Twenty-Seven Groups of Exercises has 5 exercises dealing with long tones, one with intervals and the last three with scales going up to G above high C. The other 16 in the rest of the first part of the book deal with flexibility exercises working through the range of the instrument from F# below the staff to E just above the staff (just above high C).

The exercises in Walter M. Smith's Lip Flexibility on the Trumpet, 41 Studies for Embouchure Development deal mostly with the range between low F# and High C, with the exercises in the last 5 pages of roughly 17 pages of exercises dealing with range up to G above High C.
There are 16 exercises dealing with "lip trills" up to E above high C.

Charles Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibilities Complete Volumes 1 thru 3
has the most material covering from very simple low exercises to exercises covering a large range up to A above high C. There are lots of lip trills, some interval exercises and a large variety of exercises throughout with a variety in range and length.

These books belong in every trumpet player’s library. There are so many ways to "skin a cat" (sorry cat lovers, I love cats, too). You can use a common sense strategy in progressing through these books. I would recommend Irons first if you don't own them all and you can only afford one book at a time. There are, however, some simpler exercises in the beginning of Colin's Vol. 1 and 2 you might want to do first as well as the first few of the exercises in Smith.

The Irons book is a slightly more compact book with slightly shorter exercises than the other two books. This book is a must for your collection.

Variety is the spice of life. Every trumpet player needs to practice flexibility exercises throughout their range. So, it makes sense to buy as many of these kinds of exercises books as you can and vary your practice routine though them all in an intelligent manner.
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Last edited by Matt Graves on Fri May 21, 2010 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cunuckle Head
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always Matt, you are very helpful. I will be putting Iron's on my wish list. I'll have to be careful as I just caught heck for buying "another trumpet book" from my wife . I am afraid she just doesn't understand, but I need to soften her up to get a couple of minor repairs done on my horn so I'm gonna hold off on buying any more books for a few months .

If I ever get to New York, I'll look you up for a lesson.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Matt who gave his time, allowing me not to have to give mine this time!

Matt is as usually, right on the money with his advice.

Best wishes,

John
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Jazztpt
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject: Playing samples Reply with quote

Hi John - I have seen many of your posts over the years, you certainly know your stuff. Are there any samples of your playing available , would really like to hear you play.
Regards
Russ
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
Thanks for posting. I'll be lurking and gleaning bits of wisdom from your generous sharing.
Peace,
gc
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