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plp
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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Location: South Alabama
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 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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It might surprise some here that I would also say the 80-A.....
Two other good ones are the H.N White American Standard and King Cleveland Superior, both American straight belled cornets with very similar leadpipe wraps that produce a dense tone coupled with very secure slotting. Occasionally a good condition example of either one will go under the radar for cheap.
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Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| plp wrote: | | ...Two other good ones are the H.N White American Standard and King Cleveland Superior... |
I'll have to disagree about the King Cleveland Superior. I have one and it's about the most stuffy, heavy, dead-sounding cornet I've ever played. The only reason I keep it is that it's my first horn - got it in the 6th grade.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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plp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 7023
Location: South Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | plp wrote: | | ...Two other good ones are the H.N White American Standard and King Cleveland Superior... |
I'll have to disagree about the King Cleveland Superior. I have one and it's about the most stuffy, heavy, dead-sounding cornet I've ever played. The only reason I keep it is that it's my first horn - got it in the 6th grade. |
Clean out the residual 40 year old Cheetos....... 
Have you played it recently, or tried to find a better fitting mouthpiece? I suspect while it may be simply a 'horses for courses' thing, as they are different beasts, you may not be giving it (and yourself) credit.
I feel the same way about my old Bundy cornet, but have to recognize it wasn't that bad, as it (and your Superior) planted a seed that grows to this day. If they really were that bad, we both would have dropped out of band out of frustration.
_________________
Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9367
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| plp wrote: | Clean out the residual 40 year old Cheetos.......
Have you played it recently, or tried to find a better fitting mouthpiece? I suspect while it may be simply a 'horses for courses' thing, as they are different beasts, you may not be giving it (and yourself) credit... |
Well, here's the story...A couple years ago, my nephew wanted to take band in the 6th grade (in Mobile ). I offered the old King to my brother to let him use 'till he found something better. I cleaned it well, made sure the valve alignment was good, and oiled and greased everything. It had been years since I had last played it, but it was just as I remembered - a dull, so-so horn. I tried all sorts of cornet mouthpieces on it, including the original King, a Schilke, numerous Bachs from a 1-1/2C to a 10-1/2 C, a few Conns, a Roth, my Stork 4A, and my Wick 4B. No improvement, but I gave it to him anyway. That next Summer, I bought a cheap Conn Director on eBay, just for the case and mouthpiece that was included. The cornet was actually in much better condition than I expected, so I had the few dents taken out and new felts and corks put on it. It's a very good-playing instrument, but a little too bright for my cornet tastes. I gave him the Conn to replace the King, and his first words after playing the Conn were, "This horn sure plays better than the other one." Even a rising 7th grader could tell the difference. 
As far as playing a crummy horn the first few years of my education, I didn't know any better. I did hover around last chair 3rd for a number of years, though. It probably wasn't all the King's fault...
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Ah King, that reminded me.
I bought a King 603 off ebay from a pawn shop. Bent bell, braces were hanging loose and lacquer, well, kinda spotty. The ad said very good condition. Valves were great. Anyway, it played great. I kept searching for one in good condition. I tried other King models. I ended up with lots of cornets.
In the end, I traded a bunch of them for the repairs to the 603. Looks much better and it still plays with luscious sound. I could play on it all day and never get tired of it.
So here we are:
1. Holton Galaxy: Sweet sounding, light sound.
2. King 603: Thick, luscious sound, dixieland style.
3. York Eminence: The BBB Holy Grail.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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thedevilisbad
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Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet 
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale....
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Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap. |
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RNJTrumpet
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Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 398
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| thedevilisbad wrote: | Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale.... |
Hey, can you post a pic of your 80A with a trigger? I was considering doing that with mine, just want to see how its done. |
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plp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 7023
Location: South Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| RNJTrumpet wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale.... |
Hey, can you post a pic of your 80A with a trigger? I was considering doing that with mine, just want to see how its done. |
My question is, how much do you use it? If the 1st slide was shortened to tune D better, then a trigger would be necessary for low D and C#. If it is conventional length, what notes do you use it for?
_________________
Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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thedevilisbad
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1379
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| plp wrote: | | RNJTrumpet wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale.... |
Hey, can you post a pic of your 80A with a trigger? I was considering doing that with mine, just want to see how its done. |
My question is, how much do you use it? If the 1st slide was shortened to tune D better, then a trigger would be necessary for low D and C#. If it is conventional length, what notes do you use it for? |
I didn't have it installed, it was like that when I bought it (for cheap). I suppose I use it on A's if I think I'm a tad sharp but I try to lip a lot of stuff.
_________________
Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap. |
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thedevilisbad
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1379
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| RNJTrumpet wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale.... |
Hey, can you post a pic of your 80A with a trigger? I was considering doing that with mine, just want to see how its done. |
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
_________________
Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap. |
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study888
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 356
Location: Darlington,S.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: Best Vintage Cornets For the Money? |
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| Hello,For vintage long Bell Cornets. The H.N. White King Master and later Super-20 King Master Cornet, are good quality playing Cornets. Also the Reynolds Argenta Cornet in either bore. Most prefer the large .468 bore in the Reynolds Argenta. Some good reviews on the large .468 bore , Reynolds Emperor Cornet also. I agree with Dale Proctor; the more modern Yamaha long bell 2310 long bell Cornet, does a very good job as well. A well taken care of, 1940's Conn 36A Concert Grand Cornet is a very good player for any type playing. |
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RNJTrumpet
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Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 398
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it would be tough use one on the 1st valve slide because of the opera glass tuning slide. I assumed it would be on the 3rd valve slide, I guess it works out ok on the 1st...
Thanks for the pic! |
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thedevilisbad
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1379
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| thedevilisbad wrote: | | RNJTrumpet wrote: | | thedevilisbad wrote: | Conn 80A $175 (with a trigger)
Yamaha 2310 (traded a tr300 for it)*
The yamaha has a great big bell that makes it sound like a real cornet
The 80A is just fun to play for a variety of reasons, it's going to be my main horn for a while until I have enough money to get something really nice.
*Currently for sale.... |
Hey, can you post a pic of your 80A with a trigger? I was considering doing that with mine, just want to see how its done. |
Uploaded with ImageShack.us |
The Yamaha's mod is much more functional, and much more needed. I had the 1st valve slide partially inverted in order to fit a thumb saddle on. It's more comfortable to hold and more tunable.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Sorry for hijacking the thread...
_________________
Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap. |
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awdunlap
New Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: Best Cornet |
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| I recommend the Olds Super Cornet. These things were made in the 50's. i had one in HS and college and misplaced it in a move 20 years ago. I just picked one up and renewed the "friendship" The thing plays in tune throughout the range to high C and beyond !! Absolutely amazing intonation. Try one and see (if you can find one). |
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RNJTrumpet
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Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 398
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Best Cornet |
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| awdunlap wrote: | | I recommend the Olds Super Cornet. These things were made in the 50's. i had one in HS and college and misplaced it in a move 20 years ago. I just picked one up and renewed the "friendship" The thing plays in tune throughout the range to high C and beyond !! Absolutely amazing intonation. Try one and see (if you can find one). |
I've got one for sale in the marketplace  .
http://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=22228 |
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plp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 7023
Location: South Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote="thedevilisbad"][quote="plp"] | RNJTrumpet wrote: |
I didn't have it installed, it was like that when I bought it (for cheap). I suppose I use it on A's if I think I'm a tad sharp but I try to lip a lot of stuff. |
I remember when you first got it, and I also have toyed with the idea of adding a trigger or throw to one of my old Victors, just to see if it would help on some notes. The only really problematic notes are C#, really have to make an effort to lip it down, especially on sustained notes, and D in the staff, which is just flat enough to be noticeable if I don't pull it up. Shortening the 1st slide would help with D, but would require a trigger to bring everything else down.
With our amateur group, you will hear those sustained notes gradually pull into tune, along with the clicking of triggers and throws as everyone realizes we are waaay sharp.
If I recall, about the same time you got yours there was what looked like a stock early 1960's 80-A on ebay with a coprion bell, the first and only one I've seen. It was love at first sight when bwoodard posted the first pics of the Coppertone girl, what a cool looking mod.
The most outlandish mod I've considered, to the point of hacking up an old 4-H slide (which is also .485 bore, a perfect fit for the 80-A) is a Firebird type slide. In all the stock pipe in the shop, I've found some inner and outer .468 tubing that would be the upper section, then using the A slide crook from the Victor transition to .485 for the lower section.
I've bought 3 different parts horns for this project, only to find they only required minor repairs to be functional. There is no way I'm trashing a perfectly good 80-A on a whim that probably won't work. However, if it did.......
_________________
Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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thedevilisbad
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1379
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="plp"][quote="thedevilisbad"] | plp wrote: | | RNJTrumpet wrote: |
I didn't have it installed, it was like that when I bought it (for cheap). I suppose I use it on A's if I think I'm a tad sharp but I try to lip a lot of stuff. |
I remember when you first got it, and I also have toyed with the idea of adding a trigger or throw to one of my old Victors, just to see if it would help on some notes. The only really problematic notes are C#, really have to make an effort to lip it down, especially on sustained notes, and D in the staff, which is just flat enough to be noticeable if I don't pull it up. Shortening the 1st slide would help with D, but would require a trigger to bring everything else down.
With our amateur group, you will hear those sustained notes gradually pull into tune, along with the clicking of triggers and throws as everyone realizes we are waaay sharp.
If I recall, about the same time you got yours there was what looked like a stock early 1960's 80-A on ebay with a coprion bell, the first and only one I've seen. It was love at first sight when bwoodard posted the first pics of the Coppertone girl, what a cool looking mod.
The most outlandish mod I've considered, to the point of hacking up an old 4-H slide (which is also .485 bore, a perfect fit for the 80-A) is a Firebird type slide. In all the stock pipe in the shop, I've found some inner and outer .468 tubing that would be the upper section, then using the A slide crook from the Victor transition to .485 for the lower section.
I've bought 3 different parts horns for this project, only to find they only required minor repairs to be functional. There is no way I'm trashing a perfectly good 80-A on a whim that probably won't work. However, if it did....... |
I can tell that mine had been refurbished, and I'm concerned it wasn't really done correctly. The new lacquer that was put on is quite thick, and although I'd like to have it removed, I'm afraid to see what's underneath it. They valves were really out of alignment when I got it, so I bought new corks and pads from the bandroom. Now it's only sorta out of alignment
I think there are a lot of cool things that could be done with these horns.
_________________
Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap. |
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royjohn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? |
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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that a true cornet sound was really gone by the time all of the cornets mentioned above were made. As Tom Turner has detailed in archived posts, when the Big Band sound and amplification came in, cornets started to sound more and more like trumpets. Armstrong transitioned from cornet to trumpet and the cornet sound became merely a clone of the trumpet sound.
Admittedly, one can make a modern cornet sound more like a cornet with the right mouthpiece, but the true cornet sound belongs to instruments from about 1910 and before. The classic would be the Boston Three Star, but this is now an expensive collectible, not a bargain priced model. However, there are a lot of cornets from those days available for relatively cheap . . . Yorks and Lyon and Healys and other makes. A look at Rich Ita's website would show a number of vintage cornets for $350 and under. Some might require heavy valve oil or a valve job. You might find one of these in a local thrift shop or antique shop, too. For under $600, you would have a real, reconditioned, turn of the century, played-on-the-bandstand cornet. Get a vintage mpc or a Curry vintage copy and you are in business.
Shame on all of you for forgetting your musical heritage! But, how soon they forget. What can you say about a culture that foists off the vented valveless trumpet as an authentic baroque instrument?
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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so what
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 617
Location: near Dallas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Best vintage cornets for the money? |
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| royjohn wrote: | | I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that a true cornet sound was really gone by the time all of the cornets mentioned above were made........ |
Good point. Along these lines, I think that one of the best cornet values you can find is a York Professional. I play one that Robb Stewart spruced up, and it really plays beautifully. They are not hard to find. Pretty, too. Better get a deep old cornet mouthpiece for it. The person I bought the York from was selling it to buy another good value in cornets, a Getzen capri.
-Mark Walberg |
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royjohn
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? |
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Hi Mark.
Actually, I have two York Professionals that have been de-dented, but still need a little work on leaks and a valve job each. I got them off Ebay because they are one of Rich Ita's favorites and I had heard him talk about them. I also have a heavily engraved Weymann and Son "Keystone State" model that needs a valve job. It's beautiful and I loved the sweet tone when I bought it from Rich. Once he found out I liked these vintage cornets he just kept bringing out one after the other until I found one I liked. You couldn't deal with a better person, repair tech or vintage fanatic.
I have to sell one of my trumpets to finance the rest of the work on the cornets . . .
If you like this kind of thing, and can reach him, you ought to visit Rich, he is the guy to see. He loves these instruments. When I took my 1898 York & Sons Alto Horn down to show Rich I kinda felt guilty about not leaving it with him, he liked it so much. He plays Alto in an Atlanta group, I believe.
Anyway, my point was that there is a whole different tonal ideal from the 1800's to about 1910 to 1920 . . . . nothing wrong with a modern trumpet or cornet, but it is different from the earlier models and tonal ideal.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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