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Slotting high A


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Adam V
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Slotting high A Reply with quote

I know this topic has probably been discussed a lot, but I'm not having any luck with trying to find a 1-letter word with the search function.

I just can't seem to slot a high A (A above high C). I've tried every finger combination, but the note just keeps fluctuating between G# and B... I can reach to about a D above double C, so I don't think it's me.

Could it be the horn?
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone?
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, don't beat yourself up because of the search function -- it is truly the worst search function I ever deal with on the web. Most people who really need to search, do a google search and insert instructions which limit the search to trumpetherald.com.

Assuming that you have decent technique in the range you are asking about and that it is not the case that the A is just the lowest note on which you pinch off with pressure or something, it is quite likely that your horn/mouthpiece combination is causing a problem. There has been a lot of debate about just what that problem is, but it is the case that the particular note, "A" is mentioned as a problem more than any other, followed closely by the "F" just a third down from it.

I will say that my present horn has never shown the problem regardless of mouthpiece choice. I play a Wild Thing and it has always locked into those notes very well using peices that range from a Callet 10S to my present GR G66**. (The WT is sensitive to mouthpiece choice in another area, but I solved that a long time ago -- for me, the fifth partial likes a somewhat tight backbore.)

Assuming that you are happy with everything else, I suggest changing backbores on your mouthpiece. You are getting some kind of unwanted resonance or node misplacement. Standing waves result from vibrations being sent forward from the mouthpiece and running into vibrations being reflected back by the bell. Those standing waves are what determine the horn's harmonic series. Little changes in almost any part of the system can effect where the nodes between waves of different frequencies occur as well as the shape and overall harmonic content of the resulting sound. Maybe you're getting an "A" node just at the wrong spot (whatever that might mean). A little change in how the mouthpiece is directing its vibration outward could move that node to a better place.

(Note that node placement is only one theory on those troublesome notes and my vocabularly has been selected to be suggestive of the problem, not rigorously reflective of accoustical physics.)

Besides, a mouthpiece change is about the cheapest and quickest thing you can try. An embouchure change might take a year. A new horn will cost a couple thousand dollars, or lots more, depending on your tastes and needs. A change in backbore style is apt to have the largest effect on the problem. Boring out the throat can work sometimes and its free, if you're careful and don't ruin the piece in the process.

Tommy T.

Tommy T.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have about decided there is a physical issue to this. I have problems playing high A on every horn I own (it is a hair easier on some but relative to everything else it is a pain). And on my teacher's horn. Others play it fine on my horn, their horn, any horn... It ain't the horn. I have tried several (pretty different) mpcs etc.

Of course, I am sure there's a mental aspect as well. - Don
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esuh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should see if Nick Drozdoff has any of his masterclasses on the physics behind the trumpet up on youtube or his website. According to him, there is no slot for the A, which is why it is hard for many of us to slot that note. So it actually is a false tone. A lot of people I know will use 3rd valve for the A
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can put your mouthpiece into a different horn and slot the A to your satisfaction, then the problem is either your horn or the combination of your mouthpiece with your horn. If that is the case, in my experience the problem is probably the horn rather than the mouthpiece and the specific problem is either an obstruction in the tubing (solder globs or gunk) or faulty valve alignment (either vertical or rotational) which is causing a node problem. Node problems are usually pretty obvious in that the note has virtually no slot at all, cannot be held steady and just warbles around the desired pitch.

If you have this problem on all horns then the problem is probably you, although it could involve the mouthpiece. If you change mouthpieces and still have the problem on all horns then this makes it unlikely that equipment is the source of the problem.

I do tend to agree with esuh via Nick Drozdoff that the A really does not slot, at least in the way we typically think of slotting. "Slotting" the A can involve a disproportionate amount of hearing the note and adjusting the embouchure and airstream to match rather than a mechanical locking in. So the problem may very well be that you are still training your embouchure and airstream to center on the note and that this will improve as you increase your muscle memory for the note.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard from friends and read from a lot of folks that get a good DHC before they get a good high A. Sounds like you're not alone. I have one friend that's a high note pro and I'm pretty sure he always uses 3rd valve for the A.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're at student at Long Beach, which has some of the best trumpet faculty in the world.

You're just south of LA, home to (next to NYC) pound for pound the best trumpet players in the world...surely you can ask your private teacher or seek out one of the above mentioned and ask for their help.

yes, you might have to PAY for a lesson, but you'll get much better individual guidance from those sources than this site.

It could be the horn...the mouthpiece...you...the way you play...countless variables.

For example, one time when I was hanging at the Kanstul showroom, a guy comes in with a beautiful Martin Committee, circa mid-50s era. Said there had to be something wrong with the horn because he couldn't play an A or anything higher. He was quizzing our mouthpiece guy, Jim, about what could be done to the horn or mouthpiece to get the A ('cause he was sure it wasn't anything he was doing wrong).

I won't go into a description of what the guy was doing (playing-wise or brain-wise) that was keeping him from attaining his goal.

Jim gives me the horn and sez to see what I thot the problem might be. Well...the horn had one of the easiest A's I've ever played in it, plus lotsa stuff above.

So it wasn't his horn, ya dig?

Get with someone who can both see and hear how you play to get this issue resolved.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a lesson with my teacher on Friday morning, so I'll ask him about this then.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
...home to (next to NYC) pound for pound the best trumpet players in the world...


Hmmm... I suspect you'll pay for that one, Tim.

BTW, how many pounds?

On topic -- I am working through a warm-up and some songs as I type, and wouldn't you know it I slid right into a nice high A while I was just doing arpeggios and thinking about something else. Did I mention the mental thing?
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam V wrote:
I have a lesson with my teacher on Friday morning, so I'll ask him about this then.

Good idea. Who are you studying with?

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Hmmm... I suspect you'll pay for that one, Tim.

BTW, how many pounds?

okay okay okay...I been hittin' my bikes 3 - 5 times a week, tryin' to sweat some of the pounds off...kinda hard when yer bike-riding buddies are guys named Ben & Jerry...

I look at it like this - LA's got Malcolm, Rick, Charley, Waynard, Warren, Jon, Harry, Tim, Larry and a very select few others who do all the sessions and an even more select few who do the one or two shows that play in theaters in town. But a lot of them are idle quite often, what with the work not being anywhere NEAR what is was.

But in NYC, 6 days & 8 shows a week, you have (as of today) 32 trumpet players playing what is basically a live movie score, many of who will play an absolutely note-perfect performance, show after show after show. It wasn't until my 12th time subbing on "Chicago" playing 2nd under John Frosk before I heard what might have been an ever-so-slight clam..and the only reason I heard it was I was so focused on his sound to be able to follow him better. I'm sure no one in the audience, even a pro trumpet picker, woulda heard or noticed it.

So it's not to take anything away from LA, but NYC has more guys working on a regular basis, and they are truly some of the finest players in the world.
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corsair
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to have that high A issue. I slowly worked the high G and slid up to the C above and then down for about 2 years. And just to keep it working, I gliss from G to C and back down. Arpeggios also from C to Double C. I figured if I could gliss to DHC without the A break, I could hit the A. No special fingering. But I do use 1&2.

By the way I had the issue on both a Bach and my Yamaha 8310z. But the 8310z is much less demanding physically.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Adam V wrote:
I have a lesson with my teacher on Friday morning, so I'll ask him about this then.

Good idea. Who are you studying with?

I just started studying with Dan Fornero. The past two years I studied classically with Dave Washburn.
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bg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the post that suggested lessons in person. Absolutely.

This having been said, I learned to override the break at the A by making the buzz stronger. In other words, I muscle it. It's become such a habit that
other players often ask me how I slot my A so well. I like first valve, but when your muscling it into place, it almost doesn't matter which valve combo you use.

Learn to play it on your BERP, or with your closed fist providing resistance when you buzz the mouthpiece. When you can buzz it well, you can start getting a feeling for doing the same thing on the horn. For what it's worth,
I didn't figure this out until I was in my late 30's.
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bg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to Roy Eldridge on "Heckler's Hop" , 1937. That's a good high A!
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, Dan would be a very good guy to work on your issues with.

Waynard, imo, has the most musical A happenin' today. Rich, full, resonant, makes it sound effortless.

2005 Superbowl, Beyonce is singing the National Anthem. Pre-recorded tracks, Wayne's on Lead. The lick he played was either A - D - dubba A or A - E - dubba A, that he played right after she sings the high note.

Bob McChesney (trombone) was on the session. Said they did 17 takes, and Wayne nailed it every time. Never any waiver or doubt or question.

Now THAT'S consistency!

Kinda goes along with Malcolm's 42 takes on the Star Trek Deep Space 9 theme before he clammed...got a standing "O" from the orchestra.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:00 pm    Post subject: A Reply with quote

A above high C is often the second ceiling, as range develops.
The first being G above high C.
When A is the ceiling, it is usually a rock solid, secure slot. Usually, in this case, the A is all your compression, physically, and your embouchure at it's limit, it's end, range wise.
When a player begins to sound the pitch above A, usually it's B and C, skipping Bb. At this point, A will become, for most, a half slotted note, always wanting to split in assent.
Three exercises you can do to help.
Practice tongue arching drills, like the Arban "Lip Trills", ascending, in every valve combination, varying the rhythm in each valve combination. When you reach high G, play the G and arch up, open, to A. Attempt the rhythm variation. Do the same thing 1-3. Keep your jaw set, and down.
Second, practice the same drill, but when u reach G above the staff, begin to add notes in each valve combination, up to five notes. G on top of the staff, 1-3, G-A-G-A-B-A-G-A-B-C-B-A--G-A-B-C-D-C-B-A-G.
Continue on every valve combination, to starting on high d, 1-3.
Third, practice descending minor thirds, attacking a high c, then c-a-f#, then c-a-f#-eb then c-a-f#-eb-c. Repeat this drill on every note, and add variations, going up and down, returning to the top note, over an over.
To high A.
Keep your pinkie out of the ring, and play like your playing an octave lower.
Another change that often works is a slightly smaller inner diameter. This often locks in the A. It does often pin u against the teeth a little quicker.
A horn change will often "fix" a myriad of playing issues. Two weeks later, you will play like you played before, basically, with the same baggage. You may get a bigger sound here, a brighter sound there, but your problems, like the A issue, will often remain, for the most part, returning after the adjustment is made.
If you can keep your jaw in a high c setting and play up to A leading with the air and a firm set, it will come in.
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick primer on the High A slot. It's more common on receded jaw players or any type that has the ability to play high notes loudly. Or those that have trouble playing high ones soft.

So contained in that evidence is the cure:

Learn to play above High C softly with just the mere lateral gravitational weight of the horn mouthpiece contact pressure. That means to be able to balance the horn valve casing on one hand and ascend to the upper register without significant or undue arm pressure. The "Palm method" of practice.

This takes work and dedication. Like building up the strength to do nine or ten perfect pull ups on the chinning bar. Not many people have the patience and determination for this.

When the High E is held at mezzo forte volume you'll probably start slotting the A better. Careful though! The ability to slot a decent High A decays with loss of endurance.

And once the High E plays at M/Forte level strive to get the F and G to do the same. The goal isn't to squeal higher and higher without heavy pressure but to get louder and stronger on the notes you formerly used to jam.

I find that my High A isn't all that important of a note. If i really want to maintain it through the evening I would have to drop my acoustical volume energy. That means playing softer and into a well amplified microphone. Just getting a piece of a high note and saving endurance. Something that isn't all that appealing to me.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the replies, everyone.
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very much so a player-specific thing.

I have never been able to really slot a Bb...it always skips up to the double B or C.

Maynard couldn't play a Bb either, from what I've been told.

For many players, it's the A. For some though, it's the Bb.
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