• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Slotting high A


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gmaxe
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 366
Location: melbourne,australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an A above high C?......(!)
_________________
www.giannimarinucci.com
Temby Trumpet Artist
http://temby.com/temby-artists/trumpets/257-gianni-marinucci
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
drewwilkie86
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1894
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's similar in nature to the switch from chest voice to head voice. There's a definite break, and it's slightly different for everyone. Why? I don't know!

I have no troubles with the A, B, or C. Ask me to play a Bb, and I can promise you I will screw it up. The only way I can get CLOSE, is to play it 1-2-3, with both valve slides fully extended. Doing so helps to make the horn just about long enough to slot the note.
_________________
Drew Wilkie

Schilke S32
Legit: Yamaha Hagstrom
Pops: Monette BL4S6 Prana
Lead: Reeves 39.5EX/HV(30)

HEAR ME: http://www.myspace.com/drewjwilkie
YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAxUzGzmg64
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2147
Location: ny ny

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: not really Reply with quote

Not really, friend.
A can be found and is found by most everyone, one way or another.
Bb above high c is not fundamentally on the horn. Usually, you've got to pull the fist slide all the way out to get even close. If the pass can be isolated, then pulling the main tuning slide out 3/4 of the way and playing it as if..... will bring it in.
Sometimes, open will work.
Everyone has an issue with Bb. Even if you don't think YOU do, just check a tuner. Your tendencies universally, are A is way under the pitch with 3rd valve, however more accessible then with 1-2. Second valve is good for A, however the brain often has a problem with it, as it registers "B' in the cranium. A with 1-2 does work, but it's a smaller space then 3 only.
Bb is good open. It's way high 1st. It does work 1=2=3, with the 3rd slide out.
B is a pretty clean slot, but tends flat, as does C.
One thing is certain. A larger ID will get you around up there easier, as you learn how to compress.
A smaller ID will lock you into the double notes with more certainty, once u r able to get them out.
By larger, I mean 42 Reeves, Bach 5 and larger Schilke 13 and larger.
By smaller I mean 41 Reeves, Mt. Vernon 7c, Schilke 11 and smaller.
Having said far too much, if you can hear the note in your ear, know the general way your body gets there and you have enough will, or fear..you'll play any of them, when the time comes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
LeeC
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All due respect Mcgovrnor but...

It really depends upon the trumpet player.

Let me play on my more natural receded jaw setting? I will have trouble slotting the A if tired or trying to get a really huge tone.

Play the thing on a forward jaw, screamer setting? I have no problem slotting any note. Holding fairly steady on most pitches well above DHC. Even when not in tip top shape.

Reason for the difference is in the category of what I call "Deep Embouchure Theory". Difficult to understand let alone explain.

Probably the reason some trumpet players have trouble slotting notes around High A is that the area of upper lip which vibrates becomes fickle. Wants to shift position due to wind and arm pressure. PSI versus brute force. So right about the G# the upper lip will fall out of balance and move to a position that only allows a flat A natural. Or maybe the out of tune B flat.

The pitch where this happens is variable between trumpet players. Seems to happen at High G on some of the strongest lead trumpet players too. Probably when tired.

We can watch the trumpet player on lead in this ancient Buddy Rich video get stuck on an out of tune F# instead of hitting the G at end of tune. Fast forward to 8:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDhKty0gz6Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2147
Location: ny ny

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: not Reply with quote

not really. the tendencies are well defined. for decades.
and come after, not before attainment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Matthew Anklan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 888
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess I'm not like everyone.
_________________
Matt Anklan

www.matthewanklan.com
Powell Trumpets Performing Artist
Karl Hammond Design Mouthpieces
Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Dayton and Xavier University
www.cincinnatijazz.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 4988
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Kinda goes along with Malcolm's 42 takes on the Star Trek Deep Space 9 theme before he clammed...got a standing "O" from the orchestra.


I saw Malcolm at a mastercalss of sorts where he mentioned that recording. As I recall, he said that somewhere in the middle of the session he switched from his Bb to his Eb 'cause he didn't feel like working that hard. Then he played the lick on both horns and made them sound identical. Gotta' love Malcolm.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/2C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3436

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Slotting high A Reply with quote

Adam V wrote:
Could it be the horn?
Yes...always blame the horn, or mouthpiece!
Seriously- on the Bach, forget it...on the Xeno, no problem.
Go figure.
Peace,
-Dennis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spitvalve
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 1449
Location: Aubrey, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
This is very much so a player-specific thing.

I have never been able to really slot a Bb...it always skips up to the double B or C.

Maynard couldn't play a Bb either, from what I've been told.

For many players, it's the A. For some though, it's the Bb.


Maynard nailed the the Bbs on "Pocahontas" on MF Horn III.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
http://www.bryanwfields.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LeeC
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:
drewwilkie86 wrote:
This is very much so a player-specific thing.

I have never been able to really slot a Bb...it always skips up to the double B or C.

Maynard couldn't play a Bb either, from what I've been told.

For many players, it's the A. For some though, it's the Bb.


Maynard nailed the the Bbs on "Pocahontas" on MF Horn III.


Lynn Nicholson did it too. Heard them both playing the B Flats together in a live performance 1974.

You'll find a lot of contradicting statements on chops here on HRD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Al Innella
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 597
Location: Levittown NY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Slotting high A Reply with quote

Adam V wrote:
I know this topic has probably been discussed a lot, but I'm not having any luck with trying to find a 1-letter word with the search function.

I just can't seem to slot a high A (A above high C). I've tried every finger combination, but the note just keeps fluctuating between G# and B... I can reach to about a D above double C, so I don't think it's me.

Could it be the horn?


Bill Chase recommended using the fingering 123 on the high A.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eric33
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 97
Location: france, nantes

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With my 36B and my Marcinkiewicz Bobby Shew E14 and E10.3, I never had problem with any note.
I moved to E16, and the sound is really great, but I can not play High G# nor High A anymore: it is like a hole in my tessiture! High Bb, B and Dbl C are enormous.
Perhaps is there a way to improve the mouthpiece(throat, backbore)???

Eric
http://www.masbajo.net/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LeeC
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eric33 wrote:
With my 36B and my Marcinkiewicz Bobby Shew E14 and E10.3, I never had problem with any note.
I moved to E16, and the sound is really great, but I can not play High G# nor High A anymore: it is like a hole in my tessiture! High Bb, B and Dbl C are enormous.
Perhaps is there a way to improve the mouthpiece(throat, backbore)???

Eric
http://www.masbajo.net/


I'm gonna bet that if you went back to your former mouthpieces they wouldn't play the G# or A either. Not at the moment anyway.

The mouthpiece change may seem a cause and effect slam dunk to you now but i don't think that it is. It's possible that when you switched over to the newer mouthpiece you also started playing differently ever so slightly. Maybe the new mouthpiece made things easier and you chose to play louder.

It is the loud volume and arm pressure that contributes to slotting difficulties and cut-off points.

Best cure is to back off both the volume and the arm pressure. Keeping both below a certain threshold and persevering with this effort long term. When minimal contact pressure allows a High F or G or so? The A's and B Flats will slot. But then again as soon as your tire or start jamming the cut off point will return.

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
awdunlap
New Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Slotting the High A (and beyond) Reply with quote

Slotting the high A is a matter of "tasting" the note before you play it. This tip comes from Jim Edison, a well known former professional trumpet player and teacher now living in Indianapolis. How you "taste" the note is a matter of hearing the note in your mind and matching the note to the tune in your head. Bouncing octaves helps, too, in warm ups.

Practice hitting the High A from scratch time after time in your practices. I could hit it now "cold" because I have practiced this technique for years. It does work. It will work with any note in your range.

I hope this helps.

Equipment:
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Olds Super Cornet, circa 1953
Getzen 4 valve Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 9616
Location: Escondido California

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tasting something is also highly dependent on the sense of smell. So, you should probably smell the note as well.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
so full of it I don't know where to start
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LeeC
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Slotting the High A (and beyond) Reply with quote

awdunlap wrote:
Slotting the high A is a matter of "tasting" the note before you play it. This tip comes from Jim Edison, a well known former professional trumpet player and teacher now living in Indianapolis. How you "taste" the note is a matter of hearing the note in your mind and matching the note to the tune in your head. Bouncing octaves helps, too, in warm ups.

Practice hitting the High A from scratch time after time in your practices. I could hit it now "cold" because I have practiced this technique for years. It does work. It will work with any note in your range.

I hope this helps.

Equipment:
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Olds Super Cornet, circa 1953
Getzen 4 valve Flugel




I'm not gonna say this idea has no value. However what a lot of us are talking about are those extreme high register notes that simply won't come out at all. Or are so squirrely that they are likely to create unstable tones that shake, slip up or down or even cut out altogether. Correct me if I'm wrong but your idea seems to indicate a technique that would more easily facilitate accuracy on those notes. Not allow them to sound.

Many of us here have no problem hearing or even FEELING what the note is like before we hit it. Some here possibly are as trained and accurate on High G's as others are on the mere High C.

We know what the tone feels lie. Unfortunately for many the tone simply can not be emitted whatsoever. And maybe a half step up above and all below sound with strength and musicality.

To me a High A coming up in a chart FEELS like this: "Wow, that's a high one. Sure near the end of the road for me. Let's make sure not to over compress the inner vibrating points of my lips while at the same time firming the outer muscles nearly hard as a rock. Next prepare for the tone by breathing in several beats before and neither holding the air too long nor abruptly setting the mouthpiece too soon before the tone starts and accidentally hitting a clam. Steady as we go, close teeth slightly more than a high C. Not too much arm pressure nor too loud"

'Pop'.


And perhaps a hundred other minor subconscious adjustments impossible to explain. But that's what it's about.


But I'll agree that occasional practice on upper register notes on a cold horn first start of the day has some value.

Digression: I think that all of us have multiple embouchures even if we never vary shop placement or horn angle. There's the

1. Not warmed up, stiff unresponsive lip.

2. The almost warmed up lip

3. Fully warmed up.

4. Starting to get tired chops (for me this is the time of some of my best and most easily responding high notes)

5. Barely hanging in there (if I get enough rest my high notes may still be solid)

6. Morning after a brutal gig, stiff lip.

7. Morning after a six week brutal road trip.

8. Every permeation of 1 through 5 above shared with 6 & 7 combined.

9. Having to break the scab open, clean the dried blood out of mouthpiece from last night just to get a note out of the horn. Right Tom B? (lol)


Suppose I could list a few more related to Cold sores or other interior cuts. Like the cut inner gum of upper lip from sharp upper teeth.


But back to that High A: developing a sturdy embouchure and just getting a piece of that note should pull off a solid High A. or even cure the out of tune B Flat. I like what Roger Ingram says in some of his lesson tapes. The ones that express his experience with working on tonal projection in the upper register as opposed to playing at maximum volume all the time. Which of course is the opposite of what most of my gigs call for.

A paradox: in order to generate enough "electricity" in a band (like my R & B or the big band where I play lead) I've just gotta step hard on the gas often. Playing some sets at near maximum volume the whole way through. While fun this can rob me of anything above a High G.

If I did a lot of recording wouldn't play the same as in a live setting. On the tape you can keep it soft and let the studio engineer do his tricks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spitvalve
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 1449
Location: Aubrey, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The high A has always been squirrely for me--though I honestly haven't been exploring that register until recent years. For a long time, from high school until I was in my mid forties, my limit was a high G. Sometimes I have trouble locking it in--the other day I went for a double Bb and hit the A nice and clean--on first valve. Weird.

The first time I played a clean solid high A was on a friend's Yamaha Z. After playing that horn for a while, suddenly I knew what the note felt like and I could play it on my Bach, on my Claude Gordon Selmer, my Bach C, and even on my Getzen flugelhorn. By the way, that note really locks in nice and fat on the Selmer (using the 1-2 valve combination), more than on the other horns.

So yeah, the horn is a factor, but what was interesting to me is that when I finally played it on a horn that seemed to make it easy to play, it was easy to play on all my horns--so I guess the major part was the mental block. Took me thirty-five years to figure that out.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
http://www.bryanwfields.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Al Innella
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 597
Location: Levittown NY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most times when a player can't center on a high note like the A is because they are trying too hard,over tensing the embouchure,pushing the air too hard,too much arm pressure,etc.. We all started at the beginning, and had too gain each new note by practicing,so it's difficult to train ourselves not to think of high notes as being hard to play .We have to retrain ourselves how to relax our entire bodies. It doesn't take brute strength to play the upper register,only technique and coordination between embouchure,tongue,and breathing. I use the same fingerings above high C as I do an octave lower. To have real control up there ,practice scales,arpeggios,flexibility studies,melodies,tonguing and long tones,in that register,all at an mp volume,or maybe mf at the most. By practicing too loud up high, you not only beat up you chops ,but you can't feel want you're doing right or wrong,so you just keep doing the same things over and over with no change or improvement. I know once I developed my high range, the most difficult thing for me was convincing myself that they were just notes ,not hard notes. As Yogi Berra said "it's 90% mental and 50% physical".

Last edited by Al Innella on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eric33
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 97
Location: france, nantes

PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:

I'm gonna bet that if you went back to your former mouthpieces they wouldn't play the G# or A either. Not at the moment anyway.

The mouthpiece change may seem a cause and effect slam dunk to you now but i don't think that it is. It's possible that when you switched over to the newer mouthpiece you also started playing differently ever so slightly. Maybe the new mouthpiece made things easier and you chose to play louder.

It is the loud volume and arm pressure that contributes to slotting difficulties and cut-off points.

Best cure is to back off both the volume and the arm pressure. Keeping both below a certain threshold and persevering with this effort long term. When minimal contact pressure allows a High F or G or so? The A's and B Flats will slot. But then again as soon as your tire or start jamming the cut off point will return.

.


Happily for you, you didn't bet!

Speaking about my own experience, I just wanted to say that sometimes, a mouthpiece can allow you to do some things, and sometimes it does not (I never had problem on any note with monette BL, marcinkiewicz E10.3 , E12.4 or E14 or GR64Z**, 64S-Z, 62S-Z, Warburton WCC or Schilke 13A4a etc.....).

I agree completly about "back-off the volume", this concept that I first read in Roger Ingram "clinic notes" helped me considerably.

If the rim does not fit your face, you can have to use more pressure on your lips, and it is what happens to me. I think you are right on this point, so I will try to modify and improve my E15.

Sorry for my english, it is easier to read than to write!

Eric
http://www.masbajo.net/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobList
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 1066
Location: Baltimore, MD

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed most guys that have a clean, clear A have a weak C. Those with a clear, clean dubba C have trouble with the A. Not ALL players, but it just seems to be the norm.

Oh, and LeeC, I've had better results on the A by NOT protruding the jaw so much.... so, was my jaw TOO far forward?... that can be just as bad as not protruding enough.... I'm downstream..... I can only go so far....

Bob
_________________
http://www.JMB-MUSIC.COM
http://gregblackmouthpieces.com/personal.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group