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BACH FACTORY VISIT AND TOUR AND MY NEW 239 C TRUMPET...


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bwanderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: BACH FACTORY VISIT AND TOUR AND MY NEW 239 C TRUMPET... Reply with quote

so. Today I spent 3.5 hours at the back factory with Tedd the plant manager. I was there to pick out my C trumpet. I will come to that in a bit. While there I went on a tour through the whole factory with tedd. Amazing place and very tightly run. And to all those out there who are saying that ziggy is sellin tedd his z braces, ya'll are flat wrong. I saw them for myself. The bell makers, to the platers all took so much pride in their work. Tedd is such a great and helpful and EXTREMELY Knowledgeable. He got me whatever I needed to be comfortable and pick the horn that was right for me... For all those who bash on Bach, I'm not a bach player usually but unless you visit for yoursef and have straight researched facts don't waiste my time and everyone elses by saying iggnorant and unintelligent claims.
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jcstites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just there on Monday and had a great time! The whole place looks very clean and efficient, which according to them was not the case pre-strike. We worked with Jeff mostly, but also spent some time with Tedd. They both seemed to have a passion for Bach instruments and believe in their product.
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You were probably talking with Tedd Wagoner - who has been there for a long time. He does a great job and has been helpful to anyone who has approached him. Bach did go through some quality issues for a while but they seem to have righted the ship and many of the new horns are much more consistent. I think a lot of people were upset when they raised prices to help compensate for the lost revenue during the strike. The price jumped $400.

One last thing! Before you post a post like you posted please use spell- check or it could be embarrassing.

Mike
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bwanderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry that was sent on my palm pre on the way home from the bach factory. Apologies for spelling errors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad to hear the good report on your visit to Bach. I'm a Bach player and have become tired of reading and listening to the negatives bach bashers who don't seem to know what they are saying. Keep the good words flowing!
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well no offense but what the heck does taking tour have to do with commenting on their products consistency and quality control issues?Taking a factory tour must be like staying in a Holiday Inn all of a sudden your qualified to judge the merit of other peoples comments on their consistency and quality control? I am sure I could give you a tour of GM's Tona Wanda Engine plant and you would be impressed unless you had something else with which to judge it against! On top of that taking a tour neither improves your knowledge of the product or gives you insight into the clearances,tolerance stacking or quality control numbers!!!!

In fact it reminds me of a story I once read in an Automotive Magazine. A large tire company I forget which one was giving a tour of their new state of the art facility trying to improve their companies image so it might have been Firestone. Everyone else in the group was in awe and amazed at the high tech plant but the one writer had worked in a tire plant for a lot of years prior to going off to college and getting into writing for automotive magazines. He said tot he plant manager " Hey that robot just made that tire wrong are you going to fix that?" He was the only one on the tour that spotted the fact that they high tech robots and brand new plant was making some lemons because he was the only one with experience manufacturing tires even the plant manager had never worked the line and did not spot it! So a plant tour can impress almost anyone with no knowledge of manufacturing what ever the plant in question makes..... All those fancy machines and all those workers doing their job in a well orchestrated fashion what is not to like or impress?

DO not get me wrong I would love to take a plant tour. I would how ever not hold myself up as a sudden expert on all things Bach or Schilke or in validate the comments of other's just because I took a tour of the plant! I took tours of all kinds of plants growing up in Germany. In fact one of them was a crystal carving plant but I am no expert on carving crystal!LOL

As for the braces did he specifically say that the braces in question where for the Artisan line because those are I believe the only braces people where commenting on maybe being from Kanstul. No one was talking about the other standard Bach Z braces.Did you know that Kanstul buys some of it's parts from Allied Supply? I bet if you took a factory tour of Kanstul that would not come up at all in conversation. How do I know this? Charlie mentioned this over the phone too me. I mentioned how I was not happy with some of the parts I got from Allied and he mentioned that they buy some parts from Allied.

Many people on this site have taken a tour of Schilke plant in Chicago and do not recall anyone them mentioning that Schilke tour guide listed all the parts they have out sourced for them? No mention of bell suppliers etc..... Not saying anyone lied only that plant tours are not the same as actually having inside information. IT is at best eye candy and very very interesting experience and fun!

As to wasting your time that is rather bold considering the lack of any hard facts in your post? How do you put a price on ones time on an internet hobby forum? I mean it is your time and you have to choose to read a thread so if anyone is wasting your time it is you as no one else can force you to come to this site or read a post! No one can know in advance if their post is going to meet your high standards and be meaningful to you or an utter waste of your time! I think it is pompous and arrogant to even make the assertion you made since it is an unqualified statement to start with since no ground rules as to what qualifies as good enough to meet your standard of not being a waste of your time!!LOL

I am not even disagreeing with you really I have no idea what parts Bach out sources then again you really do not know either. I doubt anyone on this site can honestly claim to know what Kanstul is selling to others either? I have to say given the small size of Kanstul and all the products they manufacture for other's and under their own name I find it hard to believe they would have the capacity to sell any parts in large bulk quantities to another company. I do not mean selling a few valve assemblies to this small guy and that small shop of selling a few hundred bells a year to small shops etc..... I mean selling thousands of pieces to a large manufacturing company! Given the size of Conn/Selmer/Couson/King/Benge/Holton/LeBlanc/Steinway Corp I find it hard to belive they would need to outsource to Kanstul for anything given the combined purchasing power and manufacturing capacity they have on tap! Not to mention their Chinese connection that could easily churn out billions of braces and ship them here on a cargo ship for less then I can go buy and Anvil made in America for!LOL

I just think it is rude to devalue peoples input just because they can not back it up with empirical number's or a quote directly from the CEO or something else that would pass for a hard core fact! If we went that route we would still not know who made Zeus products yet we figured it out in the end? You know TOny Scodwell did not offer up photo's of any of his time with Schagerl Trumpets or Carrol Trumpets no insider documents but I believe what he has said to be reasonable and possible and I have no reason to not believe him! So should be all demand harder proof of everything? IF so this board will get dull,still and boring!

I am sure this was a complete waste of your time so chose not to read it because I cannot make you read and no one else can either!LOL
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oceandrive
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I read that the valves on the artisan series have double cases compared to the traditional line of trumpets.
Does this make the valves work better and smoother?
Any experiences?
Thanks, Chris
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cap'n,

It makes him more qualified to comment than you.
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bwanderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
Well no offense but what the heck does taking tour have to do with commenting on their products consistency and quality control issues?Taking a factory tour must be like staying in a Holiday Inn all of a sudden your qualified to judge the merit of other peoples comments on their consistency and quality control? I am sure I could give you a tour of GM's Tona Wanda Engine plant and you would be impressed unless you had something else with which to judge it against! On top of that taking a tour neither improves your knowledge of the product or gives you insight into the clearances,tolerance stacking or quality control numbers!!!!

In fact it reminds me of a story I once read in an Automotive Magazine. A large tire company I forget which one was giving a tour of their new state of the art facility trying to improve their companies image so it might have been Firestone. Everyone else in the group was in awe and amazed at the high tech plant but the one writer had worked in a tire plant for a lot of years prior to going off to college and getting into writing for automotive magazines. He said tot he plant manager " Hey that robot just made that tire wrong are you going to fix that?" He was the only one on the tour that spotted the fact that they high tech robots and brand new plant was making some lemons because he was the only one with experience manufacturing tires even the plant manager had never worked the line and did not spot it! So a plant tour can impress almost anyone with no knowledge of manufacturing what ever the plant in question makes..... All those fancy machines and all those workers doing their job in a well orchestrated fashion what is not to like or impress?

DO not get me wrong I would love to take a plant tour. I would how ever not hold myself up as a sudden expert on all things Bach or Schilke or in validate the comments of other's just because I took a tour of the plant! I took tours of all kinds of plants growing up in Germany. In fact one of them was a crystal carving plant but I am no expert on carving crystal!LOL

As for the braces did he specifically say that the braces in question where for the Artisan line because those are I believe the only braces people where commenting on maybe being from Kanstul. No one was talking about the other standard Bach Z braces.Did you know that Kanstul buys some of it's parts from Allied Supply? I bet if you took a factory tour of Kanstul that would not come up at all in conversation. How do I know this? Charlie mentioned this over the phone too me. I mentioned how I was not happy with some of the parts I got from Allied and he mentioned that they buy some parts from Allied.

Many people on this site have taken a tour of Schilke plant in Chicago and do not recall anyone them mentioning that Schilke tour guide listed all the parts they have out sourced for them? No mention of bell suppliers etc..... Not saying anyone lied only that plant tours are not the same as actually having inside information. IT is at best eye candy and very very interesting experience and fun!

As to wasting your time that is rather bold considering the lack of any hard facts in your post? How do you put a price on ones time on an internet hobby forum? I mean it is your time and you have to choose to read a thread so if anyone is wasting your time it is you as no one else can force you to come to this site or read a post! No one can know in advance if their post is going to meet your high standards and be meaningful to you or an utter waste of your time! I think it is pompous and arrogant to even make the assertion you made since it is an unqualified statement to start with since no ground rules as to what qualifies as good enough to meet your standard of not being a waste of your time!!LOL

I am not even disagreeing with you really I have no idea what parts Bach out sources then again you really do not know either. I doubt anyone on this site can honestly claim to know what Kanstul is selling to others either? I have to say given the small size of Kanstul and all the products they manufacture for other's and under their own name I find it hard to believe they would have the capacity to sell any parts in large bulk quantities to another company. I do not mean selling a few valve assemblies to this small guy and that small shop of selling a few hundred bells a year to small shops etc..... I mean selling thousands of pieces to a large manufacturing company! Given the size of Conn/Selmer/Couson/King/Benge/Holton/LeBlanc/Steinway Corp I find it hard to belive they would need to outsource to Kanstul for anything given the combined purchasing power and manufacturing capacity they have on tap! Not to mention their Chinese connection that could easily churn out billions of braces and ship them here on a cargo ship for less then I can go buy and Anvil made in America for!LOL

I just think it is rude to devalue peoples input just because they can not back it up with empirical number's or a quote directly from the CEO or something else that would pass for a hard core fact! If we went that route we would still not know who made Zeus products yet we figured it out in the end? You know TOny Scodwell did not offer up photo's of any of his time with Schagerl Trumpets or Carrol Trumpets no insider documents but I believe what he has said to be reasonable and possible and I have no reason to not believe him! So should be all demand harder proof of everything? IF so this board will get dull,still and boring!

I am sure this was a complete waste of your time so chose not to read it because I cannot make you read and no one else can either!LOL


Ok so first of all, I never claimed to be and expert on any subject of tollerance, stacking, clearance or quality control numbers. I never once proclaimed to be an expert in anything to do with making of a trumpet so you were way off par on that one. Also the only "claim" I made was just as credible as yours about Kanstul. I was told BY TEDD that ALL of their Z braces are made IN house. And as for "High Tech" Equipment, the only equipment I saw people using to build the horns were old style mandrels and tree stumps with anvils and wooden hammers to hammer out bells. I dunno, I wasn't really trying to start some world ending forum. I was just trying to clear the air that the braces ARE in fact made in house.

And as for wasting time this is my 15th post on this website in a year. It seems to me that The time it took you to write your post you could have perfected 5-10 measures of a solo or something. So instead of playing God and deciding what is and isn't a good post, spend your time on the horn and maybe you wouldn't be some weekend trumpet player policing and forum. Maybe you could be doing something with your music.
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etorres16
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bwanderson,

Welcome, and I was glad to read your 15th post. You will learn quickly on this site, if you haven't already to ignore reading the pathetic dribble from Capt. Kirk, as I and many others on here already have, unless you want a good laugh as someone mentioned in another topic elsewhere. Cheers!!

E
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bwanderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha thanks E. And as for my C trumpet I got. It is a 239 Bell with the standard C leadpipe. It is Silver plated which I might add is a beautiful plate job. I couldn't be happier with the projection and the resonance this horn has. I played somewhere between 10-15 Bach 239 and 229 C trumpets today. Overall, all of the horns were AMAZING and I had SUCH a hard time deciding which one to take home with me. I could have been just as happy with any of the 15 horns. I played 5 "Identical" 239 C trumpets and they ALL played within a percent of each other sound wise and responsiveness SO CONSISTENT. The only reason I picked the one I did is that it felt just that much better in my hands. Thank you to Tedd for such a great and enjoyable experience. I will be back in the future for a few more horns.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etorres16,

In the dribble is sometimes a chestnut, but it may take some wading around to find it. It takes patience, not the average trumpet player's strong suit. In the Capt's post: Not saying anyone lied only that plant tours are not the same as actually having inside information. seems pretty cogent to me.

IMO it's OK to dislike another's posts/posting style, but does that justify value-laden terms like pathetic? I find myself wondering why so many of us find it easy to be unkind when there is zero benefit in doing so.
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PiccoloTrpt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclaimer: No offense intended Captn, these comments are just meant in jest.

Capt.Kirk wrote:

Taking a factory tour must be like staying in a Holiday Inn all of a sudden your qualified to judge the merit of other peoples comments on their consistency and quality control?


You usually sound like you've stayed at one though

Capt.Kirk wrote:

On top of that taking a tour neither improves your knowledge of the product or gives you insight into the clearances,tolerance stacking or quality control numbers!!!!


So what does?

Capt.Kirk wrote:

I would how ever not hold myself up as a sudden expert on all things Bach or Schilke or in validate the comments of other's just because I took a tour of the plant!


So what ARE your standards for commenting on things?

Capt.Kirk wrote:

As to wasting your time that is rather bold considering the lack of any hard facts in your post?


No comment needed...

Capt.Kirk wrote:


No one can know in advance if their post is going to meet your high standards and be meaningful to you or an utter waste of your time!


Pretty sure doing this is a waste of my time...got me there...whoops

Capt.Kirk wrote:

I think it is pompous and arrogant to even make the assertion you made since it is an unqualified statement to start with since no ground rules as to what qualifies as good enough to meet your standard of not being a waste of your time!!


Huh?

Capt.Kirk wrote:


I just think it is rude to devalue peoples input just because they can not back it up with empirical number's or a quote directly from the CEO or something else that would pass for a hard core fact!


Isn't that what you're doing right now?!?!?!?!

Capt.Kirk wrote:

I am sure this was a complete waste of your time so chose not to read it because I cannot make you read and no one else can either!LOL

Thanks for keeping me entertained Capn'
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
In the dribble is sometimes a chestnut, but it may take some wading around to find it. It takes patience, not the average trumpet player's strong suit. In the Capt's post: Not saying anyone lied only that plant tours are not the same as actually having inside information. seems pretty cogent to me.

IMO it's OK to dislike another's posts/posting style, but does that justify value-laden terms like pathetic? I find myself wondering why so many of us find it easy to be unkind when there is zero benefit in doing so.

Word.

I especially agree with the plant tour not being the same as actually having inside information. They wouldn't exactly let your tour a plant where monkeys are running around throwing bananas everywhere would they?

I'm glad that the workers seem diligent and dedicated. However, the proof is in the pudding. Are their horns good? Do they play well? That's the whole point isn't it?

I'm glad you like your new C. Apparently, you found the proof in your pudding. Hope it continues to work out for you!
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
They wouldn't exactly let your tour a plant where monkeys are running around throwing bananas everywhere would they?

Ohmigosh! That's the vuvuzela factory!! How'd you guess?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit a couple of you have really good points. I am sure that Bach runs two completely different factories, one that is just for show and one that produces the actual horns for sale.

I submit that a factory tour of the only plant that produces the horns is a very significant data point. Especially when actual facts prove unwarranted speculation, the brace issue, wrong.

Yes, having actual data is nice, but wasn't the same guy that made that point saying that Bach didn't make their own braces in another thread, without any data or a factory tour????

The poster states he learned from his tour that Bach makes their own braces. Others of you with zero information challenge his statement.

Does any one else find this a little silly?
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:00 pm    Post subject: BACH FACTORY VISIT AND TOUR AND MY NEW BACK 239 C TRUMPET Reply with quote

The Capt., though long winded as usual, did not seem that far off. What does it prove if the Bach people are nice to somebody who is there to buy a trumpet?

Noting that a finicky player might need a tweak and a PVA on a new Bach, I looked up the price and I find several dealers selling at $2.2K in lacquer. I also looked at the Lawler site and I find several custom made trumpets for less than that and $2.3K about the top price, unless you want gold plating or some other option. Interesting that a craftsman can under-price a factory. I believe you could get him to do some tweaking for you, if he doesn't already. I know who I would go with.

On another note, a local tweaker will be doing a C trumpet for me from parts for a total cost of about $900. I did get a very good deal on some of the parts, but we're not anywhere near $2K . . . how much was the new Bach C? When mine is done, we could have a "play off."
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googanelli
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to tour the Eastlake facility last year. It was interesting to do such. My local builder/repair guy Don Miles had shown me quite bit of how he makes horns and the processes needed to do it right. It opened my eyes as to what the people in a factory were doing.

I too would love to drop in to the Elkhart plant and try and few horns. I'd like to stop by a few places in Elkhart. The New York Central Museum, Green's buffing, etc. Glad you had fun on your tour and got a horn that you dig. I used to be a kanstul man. I loved my 1503 and that is probably the only horn i have ever regretted selling. I am now a bach guy. I have WAY too many horns right now.

-Joe
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bwanderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks joe! yea man the horn blows so great, first bach ive owned
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I especially agree with the plant tour not being the same as actually having inside information. They wouldn't exactly let your tour a plant where monkeys are running around throwing bananas everywhere would they?

LittleRusty wrote:
I have to admit a couple of you have really good points. I am sure that Bach runs two completely different factories, one that is just for show and one that produces the actual horns for sale.

Well, if that was a response to my statement, it's possible you missed my point. But, I wasn't quite as clear as I could have been.

I'm a trumpet player. I've played for a few decades. I understand how my horn works and I often know what's wrong with it when something bad happens. But, I'm not terribly versed in trumpet or brass construction. Oh, I understand the process and materials to a degree and many design concepts. However, the difference between a great horn and a dog is not very obvious - or obvious at all - when you just pick up a horn and look at it.

When I'm walking around the floor on a tour, I could get a sense of morale, of the dedication and disposition of the workers, and if they're inattentive and sloppy. I might get a sense of the level of detail they're putting into their work. However, would I really be able to tell if they're making a consistently better product than before. Do I have that level of knowledge? No, I do not.

I suspect that most people here would not either. People who actually build horns, design horns, work on horns, and maybe even fix horns are exempt from that - they have levels of expertise in this I do not. However, for example - would most trumpet players be able to tell if valves are being fitted properly on a tour? From a distance? Probably not. That's just a hypothetical example - but it makes my point.

And so, while I would greatly enjoy a tour of the Bach facility and it would make me feel better about any horns I would purchase, and I would love to do this someday when I'm in the area, the real proof is in the product. You still have to put in the mouthpiece and see what's what. It's no different for any trumpet (or any instrument, actually) made by anyone, anywhere. Kanstul, Getzen, Bach, B&S, Schlagerl or anyone.

Perhaps if it says Bessons and is made in India, some assumptions can be made. But they're not actual trumpets, just trumpet-shaped objects. Anyway...

This isn't a criticism of the original post or this thread. They're all great posts and this a great topic. But some people brought up some valid points, so there's no reason to get dismissive. We're all interested in the goings on there in the factory and it's great to hear about someone's experiences. It adds to the hope that these instruments will start to bear their brand a bit more proudly.

I'm glad you enjoy your C Trumpet. Sounds like you found one you like!
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