The more I listen...

[shofarguy]

We regularly chit-chat about a handful of issues on this Horns forum. One of the topics that comes up at least once every week is how the taper of a bell affects timbre. In the last year or so, I have spent a fair amount of time playing and listening to various players on various horns at various venues.

Yesterday, I traveled down to Oceanside to spend the afternoon with my friend, Flip Oakes. He showed me some of his latest experiments and I sat on a stool to listen to the changes and differences as he played through various configurations.

Later, I asked him about the mouthpiece he had supplied for Arturo's latest album, A Time For Love, which, if you haven't heard, is a lovely work filled with the most subtle display yet of his staggering abilities. The mouthpiece is one of Flip's hybrid TCCs, a #1 bored out with a #11 throat. Flip demonstrated the difference for me between a stock piece and one he has that is also bored to that same size.

Finally, I asked to see a gold-plated C trumpet he has in stock, and also an American Long Model cornet. I asked about the design of the cornet and he brought out an early Elkhart Bach for comparison. The long model is based on this configuration. We poked and prodded with calipers and such to compare things like bell bows and tails, valve blocks, etc. Then he offered them both to me to play.

Not being a cornet player, I still have something of a challenge wrapping my mind around them. It seemed to me yesterday that they aren't so different than a trumpet, but mostly didn't like to be pushed around as much. Cornets are more like high-maintenance women that want to be treated nice, as opposed to a trumpet that responds eagerly, like a football player, to a punch on the shoulder or a slap on the back. The more feminine instrument simply couldn't be pushed as far, or as hard.

Between the two cornets, the Bach has the tighter bell, of course. I was curious to hear the difference in sound. Surprisingly, the two horns didn't sound drastically different in the middle of their range or dynamics. Let's refer to it as the center of their performance envelope. Oh, there were small differences that the player hears first, and can be heard by the listener if they are pointed out. But, in that small shop room, the differences were small. Until.

With that background, I finally come to the purpose of this thread. That is to discuss the relationship of size to ability. WAIT! I'd better reword that! (cue Scorpion: "that's what she said." ) What I mean is that the bore size of the horn or mouthpiece, the back bore, the mouthpipe and bell taper change the amount of "room" the player has in which to work.

A tight playing horn may make it easier to hit those high notes and passages in a Maynard chart, but it also restricts the player to that one concept of playing, by and large. That is to say, the tighter the horn setup, the narrower the performance envelope. Consequently, the larger the elements that make up an instrument's design, the more the player can do with that horn.

That's not to say that there aren't sound differences, but I've come to an unavoidable conclusion that the difference in performance envelope (where the horn will go and what it will do) is much greater than the differences in actual sound.

Does your experience match mine? What other observations have you made? From which side of the bell are you referring?

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[tommy t.]

Well, Brian, my journey has been much the same as yours. I can play a few notes higher or a few minutes longer on Shew than on a WT, but I can do much more on the WT in terms of dynamic range and timbral variation.

Same thing with cornets. My Wedgwood (.472 bore, no-bumps-ovoid-valves, 5" bell and a bell flare that takes the same mute corks as the WT) can sound just exactly like my '54 Conn Victor cornet but it can sound a lot of other ways as well. Additionally, I have found that the sound and responses of the Wedg are much more sensitive to mouthpiece choice than the old Conn. The Conn sounds like the Conn, whether I using a Wick or an Oakes or a Reeves mouthpiece. The Wedg changes character pretty dramatically between the Wick and Oakes pieces.

With respect mouthpieces . . . . I've already written about the fact that I am still in shock over the Oakes XFOP on which I managed to play a two hour concert band rehearsal, ending the evening on a high D. That, on a mouthpiece that makes the darkest, syrupy sounds I ever produced.

That seems to be true of a lot of the other pieces making up a horn. On the WT, I am exclusively using the J1 tuning slide. For me there is just no reason to substitute a #2 for brass quintet. I just use my brass quintet gestalt instead of my big/dance band gestalt.

Prof. Adam would probably have some interesting thoughts about this.

Tommy T.
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Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money.

[Retlaw]

I certainly agree that the sound between different horns played by the same player is a lot less than you would expect. If a horn has a huge "playing envelope it will take an Arturo to manage it.... that is why so many horns are more middle of the road.

I guess it always comes back down to the woodshed.... I find the more I mess with different horns and mouthpieces the less consistent I am..... "fragmented playing".

I can understand your excitement at all the discovers sitting next to someone like Mr. Oakes. Thanks for sharing..

Walter

[shofarguy]

[RandyTX]

I'm still reeling from you calling the cornet a feminine instrument.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[FLgargoyle]

Actually- I like the reference to a cornet as being feminine. I could describe it that way as well. I played cornet (American long) for most of my years, and am fairly new to trumpet. Since I generally play in church, the cornet is nice because you can throttle back to a whisper, which prevents the angry glares from the choir director. One of my trumpets, a Conn Vocabell, is about as far from the cornet as you can get. I would say it has a very narrow playing envelope. Oddly enough, it was only in recent years that I started using a true cornet mpc with the cornet- I always used to use a rather 'trumpety' 10-1/2C on cornet. With my Curry 3 VC, I've found another extension further into the cornet experience. On the other hand, plugging a LOUD lead piece into the Conn takes you in an entirely different direction.

If I try, and use similar mpc's, I can get a similar sound out the Conn and the cornet, but it's definitely a compromise situation. I think it's the direction you can take the various horns that is the difference.

One of these years I'll get my hands on a true BBB cornet, something I've always wanted!
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Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
'35 Conn 40B Vocabell
'55 King Master Cornet
'40 Conn Aida Trumpet
'21 Boston Alto Horn

[RandyTX]

I see it the other way around. The trumpet can be shrill, screaming, nagging you constantly for more accoutrements, etc. The epitome of the shrew.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[shofarguy]

[qcm]

[A.N.A.Mendez]

Hey! Next time you come see Flip, come by and try some vintage Olds....I have most models and eras here. I live 10 minutes from him.
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"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚

[Capt.Kirk]

You are so much better and saying things clearly then I am. I agree not that helps you much as I am the maverick the guy that likes larger bore horns, larger leadpipes, and larger MP's etc......I feel like a rebel and I am not trying to be that.

I often say something similar when talking about the larger throats and bell flairs like the 72 bell as compared to the 37. I am often saying that it gives you access to a broader color pallet and better control in the upper and lower register......I like your way of putting it though much better......The idea of "room" or "space to work" I think is a better way of thinking about it..

I will say this I have not yet embraced the large back bores yet but all in due time I guess.

I am fond of also saying that the main differences really show up at the extremes so either end of the range and at low levels volume levels and loud volume levels........I have played some designs I think are truly not ideal and they all sounded ok in the middle of the range.


(Cornet Rant)

As to the Cornet think of it like you would a French Horn or Euphonium you never pick up either of those horns and try to muscle them around. I got a bit huffy the other day ranting on Cornet playing about trumpet players and how stupid they get when they get close to a Cornet just the other day! They always want it play like a trumpet but it is not.....It should not sound like one or feel like one just because it looks like one! In fact I even made a comment that was snide but very true if more trumpet players doubled on Euphonium or French Horns we would see all kinds of Euphonium and French horn MP that looked like dimes with holes in them because they would want to try to make them sound,play and feel like a trumpet!LOL Luckily that has not happened yet too bad it too late to save the Cornet from trumpet players in general!LOL Look at the FLugel as soon as lots of trumpet players in the USA mostly started playing them all of a sudden you started seeing shallow MP's for them to make them sound and play more like a trumpet..... So for the future just imagine your playing a French Horn and not a trumpet when you pick up a Cornet, relax, focus on your aperture and just let the horn guide you! Cornets are different species all together then the trumpet!!! The best ones do not sound, look or feel anything at all like a trumpet!LOL It is all good in the end but it does get frustrating!!!

Ever try to drive an Old School Sport Utility Vehicle quickly????? You really had to stay ahead of the vehicle and work with it because if you tried to force anything at all it would roll over. You had to really know it well and predict how it was going to behave. Trumpets are more like a nice rear wheel drive 400HP sports car they naturally communicate a lot more back to you through the steering and they generally want to do exactly what you ask.....They want to turn on a dime at high speeds they want to stop on a dime or try to if that is what you ask for.......One of the reasons trumpet player have such a hard time with the French Horn is because they try to muscle it around they try to push it when they do not get the result they wanted....Instead of trying to figure out what they did wrong they decide that it is the Horns fault because they know that if they did that on their trumpet it would have worked out just fine.... Well it is not a trumpet is it? I mean you do not say to your Wife or Girl Friend "That is not how my Mom makes it or.......My last girl friend liked it like that!!" Each car design each lady each horn is it's own beast.....So one has to be mindful of that and keep an open mind going in and really listen and we willing to change a bit to match the New Lady..........Trying to make you newlady act and perform and behave like your last lady is a recipe for disaster!!!!LOL
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[shofarguy]

You know, John, it really begins to be fun when you can just sort of float a sound onto a whisper of air stream - no real start to the tone, it just becomes - bring it up to a nice resonance and then fade away to that whisper-on-the-wind until there is nothing again, doing it with fine control. That's a responsive horn!

My flugel is like that. I was practicing certain songs tonight and using gentle breath starts to phrases. An average horn just can't do that sort of thing very easily, or at all. The Extreme Flugelhorn mouthpiece is a critical part of that experience.

I also worked on the same sort of delicate starts with my trumpet and TCC mouthpiece. I can get close to the level that the flugel can do, but not quite. Maybe with the Short Model Cornet?

I love playing in the extremities of style. I'm in this "gentle" phase, right now. Blame Arturo.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[INTJ]

[shofarguy]

afp,

I know I'm one of a few who can and does play on "big" equipment. I've also spent years playing typical stuff. My Benge is large for an ML horn, but I played it with a stock 1-1/2C for all of college.

I actually find it so much easier to finesse a horn when the mouthpiece has a large cup and throat. In my post above, I related how I was practicing fading in and out of tones with only the gentlest of air streams. Control playing. My Benge just won't do that. I get the best response with a TCC-5 (deep cornet cup, short shank, open back bore #18 throat) mouthpiece. I use less air with it than I did while playing on a Bach 3C and I get more sound.

I don't want to argue, or say "my way, or the highway", but just want to remind the readers that those who gravitate toward open equipment aren't just big blowers. Shoot! I'd pass out from hyperventilation if I tried to over-blow my Wild Thing. Windows would shatter, too!

The real difference is that with the open stuff, the player supplies more of the resistance at the lips than the, ahem, "efficient" player. IMO, this gives the player more control and latitude. It certainly does not lock one into playing inefficiently or over-blowing.

Listen to Arturo on his A Time For Love album released this past spring. He uses a Flip Oakes TCC-1 mouthpiece bored out to a #11 throat for that CD. For tracks 2, 5 & 9 he uses a Flip Oakes Extreme Flugelhorn X-3 mouthpiece in his Oiram flugelhorn. That one has a .225" bore, about a #1 drill size. Nothing but finesse there.

Yes, a change like what you are talking about will require a player to discover a different approach and rebuild range and endurance, but I would never go back to playing the standard stuff now that I have learned and developed the ability to take advantage of the "room".

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[EdMann]

I'll tell ya, I've had a large bore MF Horn for years, and used to play a big Schilke 15B with that bear, a 14a4a for big band and it just sounds the same, but to your credit, when I've got a CG Personal with a 19 throat on the front, it finally mellows out and gets a different ring. Of course, with that setup you don't dare try to play lead down at the union or you'll pass out!

I believe you have something there, but then again, it takes less an entirely different approach than time in a room with that type of equipment to get airborne . Look at the workout John Mohan is going through to play an "Arturo" 3C, just to keep the sound he wants-- hours of additional practice and his range has dropped a tritone. And then look back at the Jim Manley / Brian McDonald hang videos and see what they get with their smaller equipment-- big fat sounds, particularly Jim, and on a bent dime mpc. No slight on John M., by ANY means, but it's different strokes; the end game is time in shed to arrive where you want. As for cornet, I can hang with a girl in the band for only so long...

ed

[INTJ]

A deeper cup helps me with finesse as well, but I find the more finesse I develop the more I can play as well on the shallower piece.

I think you're comment about not being able to overblow the WT makes my point. Because of how you play, you NEED large equipment. A lot of guys are like that. The large equipment keeps you from overblowing and lets you have finesse with a greater volume of air. Smaller stuff will back up on you, sound harsh, and limit your range. That is not personal failing, it's just the way you are. And anyone who'd try to force you back to smaller stuff is an idiot.

My own personal teacher--a 30+ year pro (with a DHC)--is like you. He plays best on a very leaky, large bore Bach 43. If ever there was a candidate for a WT it is him--except he thinks Arturo tends to overblow. However, he also understands (reluctantly) about guys like me that play much better on medium large bore horns with tighter MPs. He about ruined me when he sent me to the Monette factory and I used their large backbore MPs for almost a year.

In fact, a well-meaning teacher forcing me into a large MP 35 years ago is what casued me to quit trumpet for 23 years. I showed up as a HS sophomore with a F above High C and good endurance. I was immediately told to go larger and instantly lost almost an octave of range--range I didn't get back three years later. I was them deemed as one who just didn't "have it" as a trumpet player and I switched to French Horn for my freshman year of college as a music major. I stuck with horn for about two years, then quit music all together.

Because I quit music and became a USAF pilot, I am fine with the with the first attemp to upsize me. However, you know the saying. Fool me once you're a fool, fool me twice I'm a fool. When I came back to trumpet I was determined to have an upper range, and I started off with medium sized MPs. In a very short time I could hit F's again. Now it took a long time to build that F into my useable gig range, but it is there now. Part of that journey was moving to smaller diameter MPs and tighter backbores. Like I mentioned earlier, each move toward larger MPs--esepcially larger backbores, was a step backwards.

So while bigger is indeed THE answer for some, it is not always better for everyone and can in fact be disasterous. Each person needs to find what works best for them, and for many, going smaller is the answer to a bigger sound, more color, more finesse, better range, better flexibility; meaning their "room" is at least as big as yours.

I think most players should start out with a medium diameter, med cup MP with a #27 throat and a ML bore horn. After they develop a little, they need to try larger and smaller to what works best for them personally.
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Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[intrepidpooch]

It's amazing that most of the legends back in the golden age played medium or much smaller bore trumpets than what is commonly seen today. When Bud Herseth joined the CSO he was playing a .438 bore 22B. Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan both got beautiful, singing sounds out of their Conn 8B Artist models which were also .438 bore. Snooky Young and all the other cats who loved the Connstellation again were playing a .438 bore horn. The Martin that Roy Eldridge and Dizzy Gillespie both played back in the '30s were a .445 M bore and when the Committee came out, they chose the .451 M bore model. And of course, Bobby Shew's custom Z horn is a .445 step bore (which I also prefer along with my .450 step bore Schilke B7). I feel a lot more efficient on a smaller bore instrument and I've found that I have a lot more endurance at the end of a 4 hour duo gig than back when I was playing bigger equipment. I also don't feel that I've compromised fullness of tone at all; in fact, my sound has a fatter, warmer core since I've been playing more efficient horns. Brad Goode has written some great articles/blog entries about this topic that I learned a lot from. Just something to consider before assuming that bigger is always better I guess!
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Ray Callender
http://musicians.allaboutjazz.com/raycallender
http://www.myspace.com/raycallender

[Retlaw]

On the other hand, it is an entirely different experience to get up in front of an audience, "bare naked" and play a solo without so much as a music stand to hide behind. That requires a whole 'nother mind set and approach. When I am that guy, I want all the room and capability I can get! That's why I am so passionate about Flip's stuff. It's clothing for where I live. Brian

When I play.."bare naked" solo in a trio to a packed restaurant....I always hope that the food is good...... wine is flowing and that I help the people to have an enjoyable evening. I don't think about a "big envelope"..in fact I think about less is more...... no extreme anywhere.... my "clothing is always my Hub Van Laar Oiram flugel.... good never miss valves...beautiful warm dark sound always played like a flugel and not a trumpet. I have found that my Bravura is another set of cloths ......a horn that seems to play itself...whisper to paint peeler....fast to high....dead centre intonation when you want it... very efficient big envelope never holds me back horn..... So much about playing for me is about my frame of mind.....if I have confidence in the horn I use then I seem to play better and risk more.......but it is a trap.

The intention of my playing is to make beautiful "in tune" music...... that says something people want to hear. My way of expressing myself will be different to many others.... so at the end of the day I need a good match.....but it is more about my ability or lack of it.. . I think " Mind Set" and shedding far out weigh the equipment.... we all know the "honeymoon" period of a new horn.... for a while we believe this new "babe" will be the answer until the day we no longer believe in her power......then we are on to the next tweak or horn. Perhaps the Botti's of this world have the answer....get something that works for you....work hard and stick to it...... I for one can't talk.... I have a stable full....

There are so many good horns/mouthpieces out there....I have tried "extreme" for me....big Monette pieces sounded great but the work investment in the shed to get endurance and control was just not worth it for me.... I have started to go back the other way to smaller pieces ..... I think a lot of people do that. Going back I remember thinking that I had forgotten "how easy it was with a 3C"......figuratively speaking....

Walter

[Bruin]

[davidkoch]