British Brass Band

[dacman]

I play in a British Brass Band and I have a couple of questions for you fellow Brass Banders:

1. How does your band handle the solo cornet part. Specifically, do you have your front row cornets trade off to increase endurance.

2. If there is a melodic line that is doubled in the solo and soprano parts, who plays the part, solo cornets, soprano, both?

I am particularly interested in hearing from you folks in the UK.

Thanks

[softcase]

I'm not in England, but in my band the solos trade off as needed. When one person takes a break the others know not to. It's sort of an unwritten rule, and as a section plays together more often you get to know when each person will take a break. It doesn't make a huge difference if 3 or 4 cornets are playing the same part in most passages.

As for melody with the sop, if the composer wrote it for solos and sop, he wanted solos and sop.

[JDWildcat]

I'm not from the UK, but in my brass band the solo cornets take breaks but don't sit out for very long. One or two of them will usually drop out when the dynamics go to p or pp for example.

As for doubled parts with the solo and soprano cornets, we usually play what is written.

[GordonH]

1. Yes
2. As written by the composer.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

It all depends on context. Often, the solo cornets will need to trade off a little. Depending on how much rehearsal time is available, this might be planned or not. As for the sop part, this too depends on the piece in question. There are times when the soprano colour might be considered a necessary part of the sound. However, sometimes the soprano part is virtually continuous and the only opportunities to rest come from dropping out in unison passages. In particular, in unison passages that take the soprano cornet below a written C, I'm not sure the soprano really adds that much to the sound of the ensemble.

You do what is necessary to ensure a good performance, and there are no prizes for playing every note. It is far better to lay out for a few measures in a unison than to fold on a solo or exposed passage.

[gazzabadgerboy]

[ This Message was edited by: gazzabadgerboy on 2004-03-12 10:44 ]

[Jethro Vindabona]

Chiming in from Arkansas here...

1) The players on our front row trade off quite a bit during longer (non-competitive) concerts. We also alternate some on contest music...but not quite as much. We try to plan the alternation pattern in advance whenever possible. This year we are going to NABBA with only 3 on the front row...so we have to choose our rest locations a little more carefully.

2) In most cases we double with the Soprano as indicated by the composer/arranger...but if it's a unison and he needs a break we try to encourage him to take whatever rest he needs.

Just my 2 (admittedly hillbilly) cents regarding the previous post: I tend to admire the UK and European cornetists for the dark, rich sound so many of them seem to produce. Wish I had a little more of that color in my own sound.

Cheers and yee-haw,
Jethro


[ This Message was edited by: Jethro Vindabona on 2004-03-12 17:22 ]

[trumpetmike]

Before posting my thoughts about the original post I feel it only fair to address what has already been posted by another;

Gazza
“Basically, cornet players in the UK are a pretty uninformed bunch.
There is commonly very little knowledge about how to practice.”

I think this says more about the bands you are familiar with than cornet players in general. Whilst I will admit that in the lower sections this may be the case, the players in the Championship Section brass bands are basically professional players, most of whom have had training to a very high level. Whilst I was studying at university (trumpet, at Huddersfield) there was a cornet player who was playing for Black Dyke in the same year. An amazing player who not only knew how to play, but also how to make the best use of his practice time. In the same year was Michelle Ibbotson, who is now playing soprano for Black Dyke.
They went through the same training that I did, the same musicology classes, the same theory and musicianship classes, they did the same degree course – if you are saying that they have no serious training, you are also discounting all of mine, which I would take serious issue with.

“They are almost completely ignorant about equipment, i.e. manufacturers of instruments and mouthpieces; it is almost unheard of to play anything other than Besson, Courtois, or occasionally Yamaha (when I took my Bach 181 (25) into a top British band I was told off because "you can't bring a trumpet in here!!").”

I won’t disagree about their being a sense of tradition about what to use (Besson and similar), but a Bach cornet (in my opinion) cannot blend with a true cornet section. They are trumpets in cornet shape.

As for the rest of your comments – I am very interested in which bands you know. I have played with Championship section bands all over the country and have met some amazing musicians (please note, musicians, not just great players) who fully understand their instruments, their roles within a band and how to make great use of their talents. There are, of course, examples of players who just ram it on the face and play, but very few of these will be present in quality bands – they just wouldn’t have the tone, stamina or attitude. Go and listen to Black Dyke, it may change your attitude about cornet players.
I don’t want to sound as if this is a personal attack, but there has been the general opinion that banders don’t know what they are doing for some considerable time, having played with many I feel duty bound to defend them. The brass band can’t be all bad, look at the players it has produced – Maurice Murphy, Philip Smith, to name just two of the greatest living trumpeters!

Now back to the original post. As you may have gathered, I am in the UK and have done a lot of “banding,” more than happy to shed some light on your queries.

“1. How does your band handle the solo cornet part. Specifically, do you have your front row cornets trade off to increase endurance.”

The solo cornet part is traditionally played by all four players, unless it is specifically marked as a solo or duet. If the Principal cornet wishes to take some of the tutti sections out, this is a fairly common occurrence, especially if they have a particularly strenuous concert – lots of solos etc.
When a part is split, the Principal cornet usually decides who is playing what, in the same manner that a principal trumpet would in the orchestra. Usually if the part divides the four solo cornet players would play 1,2,1,2, although if the Principal wanted to relax a little they might ask for 2,1,2,1. In most of the bands I have played with the Principal Player is the one with the sweetest tone, whose technical ability is usually close to perfection. The Second Man (Sub-Principal) is often a true powerhouse, sometimes with a range that is equal to the soprano player. If a solo needs that certain amount of bite I have seen many a Principal pass the solo to their Second. If you are playing in a section that works together often, you soon discover everyone’s strengths and weaknesses; a good Principal will be able to designate who plays where. If there is a more gentle passage it does happen that some players drop out, but that is down to the Principal to decide whether this is acceptable.
For me, the sound of a brass band comes from the blended sound of the front row – four cornets do sound different to just one playing the tune. If the players are excellent there won’t be any tuning issues, it will just be a question of a full, blended sound.

“2. If there is a melodic line that is doubled in the solo and soprano parts, who plays the part, solo cornets, soprano, both?”

In works for brass band, composers tend to really know what they want (having played under a few composers, some of them are very fussy about exactly what they wrote, including one who even specified what mutes to use – not just cup mute, but “Wick Cup Mutes, Tightly closed”). If it says for the soprano player to play, they should play. To give an orchestral equivalent, if a composer writes the same tune for both first and second trumpet – will one of them drop out? The composer is after the sound of the mix.
My view is that if a soprano part is written, it should be played. If your soprano player is trying to save their lips – tell them to take up flugel, not so taxing.
A good soprano player will occasionally drop out for unison passages (in much the same way that the Principal may), but the best players will be playing enough to add their colour, but not enough to wear their lips out.

Just my views on the subject, hope they are of use.

[alanbach]

Nice post Mike.....I don't believe any brass bandsman from the UK could have put it more eloquently.
_________________
Alan
SEWBBA Life Member

[horndevil]

Hey Mike. That guy will likely turn up at your next baroque gig with a bright green tenor Sax!

Being a life-long brass bander, I have played in a Championship section band for nearly 30 years and never below 2nd section, unless helping out a local non-contesting band (and getting a solo on their Centenary CD). The majority of cornets seen until the last few years were indeed Sovereign, for a good reason. They WERE the best tool for the job. I know of only one band even close to this level that used Bach by choice (Aldershot). There is now a better selection of suitable instrument available and this is reflected in what the bands use. Yamaha and Courtois, rightly deserve their place in the modern brass band, as do several other brands, including Getzen & B&S. Some are even lucky enough to play Smith Watkins. The cornetists have always been aware of other instruments and have tried many, usually returning to the Sovereign until recently, when the other manufacturers have made a serious move.

I agree with Mike about the way the top band's sections work, although it is not uncommon for principals to request for split parts in a 1-2-2-1 formation as well as the afore mentioned 1-2-1-2 or 2-1-2-1.

Most Sop players at this level have the chops to go all day, but are intelegent enough to take a break where they are not really adding much to the overall sound. Sometimes the second man takes the high passage with the Sop, but the part is often written on the Rep part when the composer wants a cornet/sop blend, as they sit next to each other. This means that the Repiano player is usually the number 3 player in the section in terms of ability.

I hope this helps a little, from a brass bander, who is the proud owner of more than the prescribed, single brain cell.
_________________
Haagston US3 Bb Trumpet
Conn V1 Flugel
Willson Celebration Cornet

Ian Barnes

[davidquinlan]

great post Mike!
_________________
David Quinlan

[dacman]

Thank you all for your great responses. I will take this information back to my band and enlighten everyone.

One more question, what is your band's seating arrangements. I have seen some bands that put the repiano next to the flugel, and others that put the repiano next to the soprano. Where excactly is everyone supposed to sit? This is our current seating arrangement:

Bass Trom 2nd Trom 1st Trom
BBb Tuba 2nd Bari 1st Bari 2nd Euph 1st Euph
BBb Tuba 2nd Horn
Eb Tuba 1st Horn Conductor
Eb Tuba Solo Horn
Flugelhorn Solo Cor Solo Cor Solo Cor Solo Cor
Repiano 3rd Cor 3rd Cor 2nd Cor 2nd Cor Sop

The only problem with this arrangement is that the Repiano (thats me) and flugel player don't seem to fit in anywhere. There are too many people on the cornet side of the "C" shape to have us all fit in nicely. Any suggestions will be welcome.

Thanks

[alanbach]

Perhaps "Gazza" from the UK might like to check on the following
http://www.prairiebrass.org/usopen/results.htm and
http://www.prairiebrass.org/usopen/review.htm

[gazzabadgerboy]

I seem to have touched a raw nerve here...
Don't get me wrong, there is some fantastic cornet playing going on in the British brass band scene and at the various college and universities with band courses.
I was admittedly exaggerating, but it just strikes me that the body of British brass band cornet players haven't excactly explored all the options...
For instance, I don't believe that the 98ish% of them that play Dennis Wick mouthpieces have chosen to do so after comparing them with the huge selection that's available.
Of course there is a question of blending in the section, but the best cornet section I ever played in was in a top european brass band (but not in UK) where Bach, Warburton, Giardinelli, Stork and Wick mouthpieces were all being used.
My favourite British cornet player varies between a Warburton and a Wick depending on context, of course there is no right or wrong here.. It just seems unlikely that such a small selection of mouthpieces are deemed suitable to so many individuals.
And my comment about being uninformed (possibly a tad harsh, I admit), I made because it seems to me that some cornet players could improve certain aspects of their playing by changing equipment, but the majority seem loathe to do so. Of course this does not apply to the very top cornet players in the country.

Out of interest; what equipment do you US cornet players use?

[dacman]

We have a lot of different make/models in our band: Yamaha, Bach, Benge, Kanstul, Conn. It's a mixed bag, and the mouthpiece selection is even more varied. I am currently working on getting everyone to at least attempt to play in a deep "V" mouthpiece to get the traditional cornet sound. Most player have tried and switched due to the warmer, sweeter sound, but we still have a couple of solo cornets that play on trumpet-style C-cup mouthpieces. Their ego can't handle the decrease in range/endurance when playing with a deeper mouthpiece, even if they sound so much better. I believe however, that if you want the nice cornet sound, the deep "V" style moutpiece is necessary.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

trumpetmike wrote:

"If it says for the soprano player to play, they should play. To give an orchestral equivalent, if a composer writes the same tune for both first and second trumpet – will one of them drop out? The composer is after the sound of the mix."

In both the orchestral and brass band worlds, there are composers who either don't know or don't care about endurance issues. There are times in all music, by composers great and small, where the expectations are unrealistic. Also, it is impossible to know from looking at the music whether the composer's (or arranger's) intent is, "I want exactly four solo cornets, one repiano, and one soprano here, and anything else is unacceptable," or, "I want a heavily doubled cornet sound." Based on my experience working with composers, I suspect that the latter is at least as common. In any event, there is at least as much variation between six cornets in Band A and six cornets in Band B as there is between five and six cornets in Band A.

[dacman]

I just realized that my previous post about seating arrangements didn't come out looking like I wanted. Apparanently, all of the spaces I used were removed. In any case, my question still stands, where does the repiano player sit, next to the sop, or flugel?

We currently sit like this:
Solo Solo Solo Principal
Rep Flug 2nd 2nd 3rd 3rd Sop

Is this correct?

[ This Message was edited by: dacman on 2004-03-12 09:40 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dacman on 2004-03-12 09:41 ]

[horndevil]

Hi Dacman

Your back row cornets look a little odd. The normal configuration is below. The Flugel rarely sits on the cornet bench these days, but used to be found between eirther Sop and Rep, or Rep and 2nd.


Solo Solo Solo Principal
3rd 3rd 2nd 2nd Rep Sop

Rep is probably the best cornet part to play, but you need to be next to the Sop to realise it's true potential. You will find lots of doubling with the Sop and front row cornets, as well as duets with the Sop or Principal. This is something, that will be difficult to achieve where you are currently sat.

Enjoy it. If I wasn't on Flugel, I would head straight for the Rep chair.
_________________
Haagston US3 Bb Trumpet
Conn V1 Flugel
Willson Celebration Cornet

Ian Barnes

[Aidan]

[gazzabadgerboy]

David King.. that man really knows his stuff. Him and YBS are pretty awsome I have to say..
PS well done last weekend.