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Tonguing (Modified



 
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basie1955
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Joined: 25 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2001 9:47 am    Post subject: Tonguing (Modified Reply with quote

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Last edited by basie1955 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 8929
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

I find that the tip of my tongue often is quite high. Often touching the very top of my bottom teeth. And it often touches the inside of my lower lip as I tongue. Herbert Clarke experienced this same phenomenon. He used to tell Claude that sometimes his tongue would tickle his lip mercilessly.

I find the above to be particularly evident during double and triple tonguing. But, this is still “K Modified” tonguing, as the tip is all the way FORWARD in my mouth. I never have my tip up and back a bit striking on my top teeth or behind them. That is where the trouble begins with tonguing method most players are taught.

I find it curious that you wrote that your tongue tip touches your TOP lip. But this could simply be due to the formation of your embouchure.

My advice is to practice the K-Modified tonguing off the horn (no mouthpiece, no lip buzzing) A LOT. Spend 15 minutes or more each day just blowing air and doing the K Modified tonguing. Keep your tongue tip resting lightly behind your bottom teeth NEVER ANCHORED. IT needs to be relaxed, not tense. When Clarke wrote “anchored” in his Characteristic Studies book, he didn’t mean tense or locked, he meant that it stays there.

I’m sure you are familiar with the tonguing exercise Claude assigned to students who were learning the K Modified way. It appears in “Tongue Level Studies” as the first exercise in the book – basically, you tongue 16th notes on middle G for 16 counts or so (not too fast a tempo yet). Then you rest as long as you played. Then you move up chromatically to G# and repeat the exercise. Then you progress up to middle C in this manner, and then down chromatically to low C, doing each note as 16th notes for 16 beats, always resting as long as you played each pitch.

If you spend two weeks at the above, I don’t think you’ll ever want to go back to the old way of tonguing. Sometimes I try to tongue in the “normal” manner, and I can’t believe how slow and awkward it is, especially in the upper register!

Hope this helps,

John Mohan
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tcutrpt
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
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Location: Great Lakes, IL

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2001 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, what is this modified K tonguing and where can I find out more information about it? thanks

matt
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 8929
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-11-27 13:26, tcutrpt wrote:
John, what is this modified K tonguing and where can I find out more information about it? thanks

matt


Dear Matt,

More info on this way of tonguing can be found in the bottom two paragraphs on page 5 of Herbert L. Clarke's "Characteristic Studies" (not "Technical Studies") book, page 2 of Claude Gordon's "Tongue Level Studies" and page 26 of Claude Gordon's "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing".

It's interesting that your name is Matt, because I'm giving you a website address run by a former Claude Gordon student named Matt Graves - he has an excellent description of "K Modified" tonguing there:

http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/k_tongue_modified.htm


I had told myself several years ago, that the one thing I would not "give away for free" to players was the KTM way of tonguing. Well, I guess I'm not doing a very good job of keeping it secret!

All for now,

John Mohan
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EBjazz
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Joined: 14 Nov 2001
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Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that when teaching KTM it is important not to "tell" somebody to do it, rather to let them discover it on their own.
This is what Claude did with me and it took quite a while before I realized what I was doing. Claude never said "KTM is the way you should be tonguing, start doing it today". On the contrary. He would ask "So, do you notice anything about KTM?" at every lesson and I would say "Uhhh..like no or something" and we'd move on. End of discussion. Until one day I didn't say no, I actually had observed something.
Now here's where the "Secret" that John alludes to about KTM and I'm not gonna "tell" you either because it isn't they way Claude taught me.
What I will do is help you get on the way.
Practice Clarke study 1 with a regular KT.
The tip of the tongue should be resting somewhere behind the bottom teeth. Lightly touching the bottom teeth. This is very important. Now KT the exercises using the back of the tongue-K like in double tonguing.
This will not sound good and will be slow going.
Please seperate the notes so there is daylight between each one.
Practice this for a week and then go to study 2. Again for a week.
By this time you will be getting good at KT and you may be ready for KTM. If you feel you are(anybody out there), let me know and I'll continue this thread.
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Jeff L
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Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 2
Location: Augusta, Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

basie1955
Hey guy if you already tongue through your teeth please contact me privately. I think I can help. I am a former Claude Gordon student and have found something that attentuates the forward tongue concept beyond the specified method in the CG material.
[email protected]

Sincerely
Jeff Lambardino
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-12-05 16:30, EBjazz wrote:
I find that when teaching KTM it is important not to "tell" somebody to do it, rather to let them discover it on their own.
This is what Claude did with me and it took quite a while before I realized what I was doing. Claude never said "KTM is the way you should be tonguing, start doing it today". On the contrary. He would ask "So, do you notice anything about KTM?" at every lesson and I would say "Uhhh..like no or something" and we'd move on. End of discussion. Until one day I didn't say no, I actually had observed something...



Hi there Eric,

In talking with other students of Claude's I've seen that, especially in the earlier years, Claude used to think it was best to "let the student discover" KTM. From what you posted, it appears that Claude gave you specific KTM exercises, but didn't really talk about how important this would become in your playing. With me, Claude waited until my 2nd crash course to tell me about KTM. At that point, he did talk about "the wonders" of it and switched me over by hand writing the exercise that would later appear as the 1st Exercise in tongue level studies. By the end of the week, he had me KTMing the Clarkes as my "Single Tongue" model. With another older student I know, who studied with Claude in the late '60's and early 70's, Claude took the "let them discover it for himself" approach to the point of not even telling him directly anything about KTM. Unfortunately, this student never "got it" (until years later), and he wasn't too happy that Claude didn't teach him about it! Claude definitely changed his tactics and methods over the years and tried new and different things with different students. By the nature of this (necessary) experimentation, not all benefited equally, especially in the earliest days of his teaching.

All for now,

John Mohan
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Matt Graves
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Joined: 19 Dec 2001
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Location: Brooklyn NY

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by Matt Graves on Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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saelee
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Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one thing, I believe I am feeling the advantage to using the K tongueing. When using it, it just seems to make my embrochure more compact and controllable, thus allowing me more power and sound with less effort. The problem I'm having is producing a stacatto tongue using the K Tongue method. My tongue tends to buzz against the roof of my mouth thus producing a sloppy attack. Granted I jsut started using this method, so I haven't had too much time to practice it.

Is this normal? Do you have other pointers?

Is the tip of the tongue supposed to stay by your bottom front teeth the entire time?

Thanks again for the great posts.

Sam
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Bill Hicks
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 121
Location: Denver, PA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-12 11:04, saelee wrote:
Just one thing, I believe I am feeling the advantage to using the K tongueing. When using it, it just seems to make my embrochure more compact and controllable, thus allowing me more power and sound with less effort. The problem I'm having is producing a stacatto tongue using the K Tongue method. My tongue tends to buzz against the roof of my mouth thus producing a sloppy attack. Granted I jsut started using this method, so I haven't had too much time to practice it.

Is this normal? Do you have other pointers?

Is the tip of the tongue supposed to stay by your bottom front teeth the entire time?

Thanks again for the great posts.

Sam


The tip of your tongue should be behind the top edge of your bottom teeth. Don't plant it there firmly or rigid, just let it rest there comfortably. It may move slightly while playing. With K-tongue, try to get a light, crisp attack, always trying to feel the point of the attack forward towards the tip of the tongue. Not a heavy guttural sound back by the throat.
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Claude Gordon student 1970-1987
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saelee
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Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2002 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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