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Penetrating oils (WD-40 etc.)


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WTplayer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:55 am    Post subject: Penetrating oils (WD-40 etc.) Reply with quote

After reading several threads about stuck tuning slides I'm wondering why many people strongly discourage from using penetrating oils like WD-40 on a trumpet. On the other side most can't tell a good reason for not using it. I used a similiar oil to remove some buildup in an old Conn 22B in bad condition which worked well. Do such oils have any negative effect on brass (any chemical reaction - which I don't really believe of something that's made to prevent corrosion)? Or is it just because it might be unhealthy to breathe it in while playing?
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Penetrating oils (WD-40 etc.) Reply with quote

WTplayer wrote:
After reading several threads about stuck tuning slides I'm wondering why many people strongly discourage from using penetrating oils like WD-40 on a trumpet. On the other side most can't tell a good reason for not using it. I used a similiar oil to remove some buildup in an old Conn 22B in bad condition which worked well. Do such oils have any negative effect on brass (any chemical reaction - which I don't really believe of something that's made to prevent corrosion)? Or is it just because it might be unhealthy to breathe it in while playing?


WD-40 is not a lubricant, propaganda to the contrary. It's a water displacer, and it leaves stuff behind that you'd have to clean off. Apply a little heat, and it turns into an adhesive. Machinists frequently use it to affix keys into motor shafts, for example.

As for short term use for specific purposes, it probably won't hurt anything, just clean it off when you're done.

Tom
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jscahoy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Penetrating oils (WD-40 etc.) Reply with quote

WTplayer wrote:
On the other side most can't tell a good reason for not using it.

Here are two reasons: it's toxic and it stinks. But if a slide was otherwise hopelessly stuck, I might try it anyway, then give the whole horn a bath afterward.
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nyctrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Penetrating oils (WD-40 etc.) Reply with quote

WTplayer wrote:
After reading several threads about stuck tuning slides I'm wondering why many people strongly discourage from using penetrating oils like WD-40 on a trumpet. On the other side most can't tell a good reason for not using it. I used a similiar oil to remove some buildup in an old Conn 22B in bad condition which worked well. Do such oils have any negative effect on brass (any chemical reaction - which I don't really believe of something that's made to prevent corrosion)? Or is it just because it might be unhealthy to breathe it in while playing?


This comes right from wd-40.com, just some basic info on the common uses for this product:

Did you know...
WD-40 can clean your bike & tools, remove grease, and lubricate locks, hinges, & all moving parts
WD-40 removes paint, gum, rubber cement, rubber adhesive, stickers, rust stains and more
WD-40 loosens and penetrates rusted or stuck bolts and plumbing joints

Multi-Purpose Problem Solver for Over 50 Years: WD-40
WD-40, everyone's favorite multi-purpose problem solver for over 50 years, cleans, lubricates and protects against corrosion. It also removes grease, gum, dirt, adhesives, & scuff marks. Enjoy the popular, newly expanded Official List of 2000+ Uses for WD-40.

If you looking for get stuck parts loose, I personally use liquid wrench on stuck threads and whatnot. if your looking to clean brass slides, a little brasso on a soft cloth will do the trick. It also shines raw brass well. After you use any product that cleans or has any chemical that might do harm to you, I would always clean your part that your working on or the whole horn. A lemon detergent like Ajax, I find is the best. Hope this helps.
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Greenleaf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you're in a real hurry, try an overnight soak in water; soapy water if that doesn't work. Also try soaking a little longer. Often it works! Do this before going to penetrating oils. Heat as a last resort, but you may want to seriously consider a trip to your tech before that.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kroil
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why all the concern about something being toxic..unless you plan on drinking the stuff. Valve oil is toxic. If you don't like the smell of something..then don't use it.

WD40 is a general purpose cleaner..and it is in fact a lubricant that works great in some applications...not so good in others. If you were planning on using it as a slide lube on a trumpet..it may creep into the valves and make them gummy because it will only absorb so much water.

Most common penetrating oils are kerosene mixtures..and kerosene is actually liquid paraffin...also used as valve oil..except for the synthetics. Kerosene smells pretty bad..that is why it is descented. Scented lamp oil is the same thing. Liquid Wrench is a thinner version of kerosene..and also toxic. PBS Blaster smells very bad.

Use whatever you want for cleaning or un-sticking parts..then give the horn a bath with warm soapy water...rinse..dry..and lubricate with conventional horn products.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reason *not* to use penetrating oils on *really* stuck slides. It's what your tech (or at least what mine) does. But as others have said, cleaning it off afterwords is important.

I have had good luck with LiquidWrench, and PBlaster (as heavy-duty as it gets without having to buy industrial stuff that only comes in 5 gallon buckets!).

Carefully heating with a torch helps thin out the penetrating oil further so it can wick into every tiny micro-cranny, but not recommended for the inexperienced.

Plenty of other tricks are available if you do a search.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD-40 is Water Displacement Formula 40 and was invented to displace water from Rocket part. It is not a penetrating oil and does not have an affinity for oxidized metals or strong capillary action. PB Blaster is the best over the counter stuff you can buy. Mouse Milk is Popular in Aviation Repair Facilitiies and a company that goes by Kroil is big with competitive shooter in the Bench Rest shooting. I typical use PB Blaster as it is the best I have found that is commonly available coast to coast. Feerre's(sp) which sells mostly to Brass Repair Shops has it's own penatrating lube called Nut Buster. So their is no reason not to use Penetrating Lubricants on frozen parts. Generaly Penetrating Oils are low on Lubricating Properties so they do not usually present a good lubricating properties at all but they are usualy great at getting under oxidized metals and weakening the bonds.


It usualy stems from gun owners that have used penetrating oils for years losing their "Rust Blueing" that blue/black color on gun parts is done by boiling the gun in salts to form an oxide layer you would not want to wipe it away with years of penetrating oil as the main lube. Often people have no idea why their Gun Smith said not to use these products on their gun. Before you know you have all kinds of people passing info through the grape vine and before you know it the entire part about not using them on most firarms is lost and it is just "Do not use penetrating oils!".....This is speculation but I have seen it happen enough times and followed it back to someones "Gunsmith" about 20 times now and it is always a matter of the "why" being lost as it pass's from mouth to mouth......
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Lboretrumpets
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used acetone and automatic transmission fluid in a 50/50 mix... a mechanics website tested that against a few leading brands of penetrating oils, and it beat out all of them. You just need to be careful with it, especially if you use heat.
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david mickley
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you have used a penetrating oil to loosen up a slide and it didn't work be sure to tell your tech before he works on it, he'll appreciate the heads-up. I love Kroil but we had to stop using it at our plant due to EPA regs, the stuff can really get to you if used in a closed area.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummmmmmmmm.........Kroil.........

Seriously, that stuff works better than anything else I've tried. It still didn't loosen the slides on the Yamaha cornet I bought a few weeks ago - had to take it to the shop.
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WTplayer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the information! Does anyone have experience with CorrosionX? It's just because I found an unused bottle of it in my garage...
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acetone and ATF is what I learned as "Ed's Red"......I had a friend from New Zealand Ole' Sarge great guy ex Special Forces and private security owner before he died of Cancer that was fond of 70% ACETIC ACID Mixed with Lanolin he called it "Strong Acetic Acid". I use cresylic acid for a lot of stuff. It is good to clean carbon out of anything from engines to gun bores it is or was Mil-Spec for bore cleaner for a long time. I think it is 2-117 Mil Spec.?? It was popular back when fuel oil was the main heating fuel to keep oil furnaces clean I think their was a product called "Kleen Burn" and that was the main active ingredient. I use it at a rate of 1% in my oil and fuel about once every six months. If you run a ester based oil though then Iso Propyl Alcohol will clean just as well. We use Iso Pro when working on Jet Engines as a cheap cleaner because it works well, fairly green and cheap. I have not touched a Jet Engine though in a long long time so things might have changed?? DO not try Iso-Pro on regular oil though it does not do much that is what is the main ingredient in SeaFoam.

Some more free home brew stuff....Be carful though with any acid when you get past 30% you are starting to work with some stuff that can really cause some skin damage so be smart guys! To give you an idea Vinigar is 5% Acetic Acid to you can imagine how strong 70% would be!
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
stuff


Heed these cautions.

Tom
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is more to removing stuck slides than just penetrating oil.

If a slide is seriously stuck..the horn should be flushed with degreaser..then the slide bow and tubes should be filled with a mild acid cleaner through the empty valve casing with a syringe..with the horn suspended so the cleaner soaks the slide from the inside. The acid cleaner will dissolve the corrosion that may inhibit the penetrating oil.
Flush the acid cleaner after a day..then fill with penetrant of your choice..I use PB Blaster most of the time..then suspend the horn again...gently tapping everyday...the penetrant will start to drip out the slide if it passes through the stuck tube.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: Penetrating oils (WD-40, etc.) Reply with quote

Rogersbrass . . . .

Can you be a bit more specific as to what products these are? What "degreaser" and what "mild acid cleaner."

Thanks!
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can always tell when an acid has been used on a horn the raw brass takes on a cleaner yellow color and will sometimes show pink stains from where some zink has been leached out.

Sometimes it is so bad that even with an acid cleaning you still have to remove the tuning slide crook so you can get hold of the inner tubes and heat and pull. Feerre's(sp) always forget where the "ee" go has a special pair of pliers I have been dying to order that is designed to get into the space between the slide and the outer slide and after liberal use of penetrating oil expand the parts apart ie push them apart. Sounds like a wonderful tool anyone try it yet?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTplayer wrote:
Thanks for all the information! Does anyone have experience with CorrosionX? It's just because I found an unused bottle of it in my garage...


I'm not sure digging through the garage is for things to use on your brass instrument is a good idea. Unless you've got an interesting garage and a clue (like experience in brass repair).

That disqualifies me as well, by the way. I can tinker around and fix minor stuff on trumpets, clarinets, and saxes, but that only means I've really got half a clue.
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Lboretrumpets
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
\Feerre's(sp) always forget where the "ee" go has a special pair of pliers I have been dying to order that is designed to get into the space between the slide and the outer slide and after liberal use of penetrating oil expand the parts apart ie push them apart. Sounds like a wonderful tool anyone try it yet?


The name is Ferree's, and those particular tools do work well... if you know what you're doing. Otherwise you can crush the inner slide tubing, or compress the slide ferrule, or bend the slide because one side is moving and the other isn't... In any case, they have several different sizes to accommodate everything from pic trumpets to 5/4 contrabass tubas.
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