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Kanstul 1500


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stevericks
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:24 am    Post subject: Kanstul 1500 Reply with quote

Does anyone know what horn (if any) the Kanstul 1500 is cloned from? I know the 1537 is a Bach Stad with 37 bell, the 1502 is a Callichio, the 991 is a Conn Connstellation, and of course the Kanstul CHicago -1000, 1001 are based on Benges.

So what about the 1500 (or any other Kanstuls you might know)?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's that dreaded word, "clone". We all know what you mean, but sales manager, Charles Hargett, is quick to point out that Kanstul horns are not clones, they are Kanstul horns. "Set up like", is the preferred line, "patterned after" is another. "Copied from" is even dissuaded, although true enough. Zig is good at producing classic designs and giving them the Kanstul flavor. Alright, enough of this.

No one remembers exactly where the #7 Kanstul bell came from (the best guess is Olds), but the story is that Hal Oringer wanted something different, saw the mandrel and asked that Zig build him a trumpet using it. This became the 1500.

So, no one knows.

Btw, the 1503 & 1504 "are set up like" a Bach 72/25 & 72/43, respectively.

Brian
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sbolton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:57 am    Post subject: Kanstul 1500 Reply with quote

I was just out at the Kanstul factory showroom two weeks ago and the 1500's are Zig's take on Bach Strads. They have that stuffyness that I do not care for like Strads do. They definitely classical style horns. The 1000 and 1001 are actually Benges without the Benge name. Zig has all of the "original" tooling from the Benge factory. I have LA Benges and you cannot tell a difference. The 700 was a great playing horn. In many ways one of Zigs better horns for the money.

----------------
Benge 5x
Benge 2x
1955 Conn 14B
1923 martin
1929 martin[/list]
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
There's that dreaded word, "clone". We all know what you mean, but sales manager, Charles Hargett, is quick to point out that Kanstul horns are not clones, they are Kanstul horns. "Set up like", is the preferred line, "patterned after" is another. "Copied from" is even dissuaded, although true enough. Zig is good at producing classic designs and giving them the Kanstul flavor. Alright, enough of this.

No one remembers exactly where the #7 Kanstul bell came from (the best guess is Olds), but the story is that Hal Oringer wanted something different, saw the mandrel and asked that Zig build him a trumpet using it. This became the 1500.

So, no one knows.

Btw, the 1503 & 1504 "are set up like" a Bach 72/25 & 72/43, respectively.

Brian


Brian,

Yes, I agree, they really aren't clones -similar to but often with improvements. Wasn't sure of the terminology. You'll prbably keep having to remind me.

So if the 1500 is based on a Strad, what is the 1537? It even has "37" as in the #37 bell. Thanks for the info on the 1503 -1504. Wish someone would put all of this together in a table. Kanstul -"somewhat similar to or based on a..."

I really like Kanstuls and don't see how comparisons could hurt their business. I chose the 991 over a Connstellation, and picked up a 1537 over my Stad.
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Kanstul 1500 Reply with quote

sbolton wrote:
I was just out at the Kanstul factory showroom two weeks ago and the 1500's are Zig's take on Bach Strads. They have that stuffyness that I do not care for like Strads do. They definitely classical style horns. The 1000 and 1001 are actually Benges without the Benge name. Zig has all of the "original" tooling from the Benge factory. I have LA Benges and you cannot tell a difference. The 700 was a great playing horn. In many ways one of Zigs better horns for the money.

----------------
Benge 5x
Benge 2x
1955 Conn 14B
1923 martin
1929 martin[/list]


Which Strad is the 1500 modeled after? I thought the 1537 was modeled after the Bach 37 with 25 lead pipe and 37 bell, double brace...etc.

Just curious. I agree, Kanstul are a great horns for the money (great horns period).
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kanstul Signature and Chicago Trumpet series and their design inspirations:

1500 - original design (Olds lineage?)
1500A - heavy variation of 1500
1500B - ultra lightweight 37 Strad
1501 - Calicchio 1S/7
1502 - Calicchio 1S/2
1503 - 72/25 Strad
1504 - 72/43 Strad
1537 - 37/25 Strad
1600 - developed originally for Wayne Bergeron
1601 - lightweight 1500 variation by Tim Wendt
1000 - Benge 3X
1001 - Benge 3X+
1070 - Besson Meha
X-Model - Mudge Miller design
991 - Constellation

C - trumpets
1510 - C version of 1500
1510A - 229 Strad
1510B - 239 based Byron Autrey design

1410 Convertible - original design started decades ago and now finished.
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Last edited by shofarguy on Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

Next month I will have been associated with Kanstul for 23 years. I own and play, among the many Kanstuls in my arsenal, a 1500. That's what I played this weekend for Easter gigs and in the run of "Seussical" that I'm currently playing.

The 1500TW / 1601 is based off of the 1500.

The 1500 is not a clone of ANY Bach Strad, other than it shares Zig's version of the Bach 25 O lead pipe.

The story of Hal looking thru a bunch of bells & mandrils is true. That horn, which originally had no name to it (sometimes called the "Hal" horn, or the "M" bell horn), eventually became known as the 1500 because that's what Zig wanted to call it for marketing reasons.

It wasn't until well into the 1990s that Zig started putting model number designations on his horns. Before that we knew them by pretty much just the bell flair and valve section.

Altho several of the horns were made and passed around to certain players for evaluation, I was the first to publicly show and display that trumpet (along with it's brother flugel & C) at the 1988 ITG at NTSU.

The 1501 / 02 are Zig's versions of the Calicchio 1S2, and the 1503 / 04 are his version of Strads.

Brian - the 1600 is based off the 1503 with Wayne's tweaks.
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Kanstul Signature and Chicago Trumpet series and their design inspirations:

1500B - ultra lightweight 37 Strad

1537 - 37/25 Strad


Brian, I was under the impression the 1537 replace the 1500B in the Kanstul line up. You describe the 1500B as an 'ultra lightweight 37 Strad' - did Kanstul change the 1537 to be similar to a standard weight Strad?
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Kanstul Signature and Chicago Trumpet series and their design inspirations:

1500B - ultra lightweight 37 Strad

1537 - 37/25 Strad


Brian, I was under the impression the 1537 replace the 1500B in the Kanstul line up. You describe the 1500B as an 'ultra lightweight 37 Strad' - did Kanstul change the 1537 to be similar to a standard weight Strad?
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian and Trpthrd -many thanks for the info. I saved a file of your info for future reference.

Wish we knew which (if any) Olds that Zig was thinking about when he began designing the 1500. Any guesses? Mine has siverplate so I am assuming it is copper underneath.

You info leads to a couple more questions. The "M" horn? Is that significant for something?

Also, I have a Chicago Kanstul made in June of 2000. Any idea if it is the 1000, 1001, etc. (did they make several bores back then?) or did anything change in the specs with the number change? Great little horn-very easy and responsive to play. Doubt it is large bore.
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that the 1537 was designed as standard Bach Strad with a 37 bell (hence the 1537 designation) and is a different animal then the 1500B. The 1500 is definitely a unique horn, as is Tim's 1601. Both are terrific playing horns.

The 1000 is a .460 bore and the 1001 is a .464 bore (same as the Benge 3X+) Though, I believe the 1000 series was designed off a Chicago Benge Zig has. If the 1001 is like most 3X+ horns the .464 bore is only from the end of the bottom tube on the tuning slide to the third valve. I believe everything else is the same.

Mike
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Last edited by Trptbenge on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RNJTrumpet wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Kanstul Signature and Chicago Trumpet series and their design inspirations:

1500B - ultra lightweight 37 Strad

1537 - 37/25 Strad


Brian, I was under the impression the 1537 replace the 1500B in the Kanstul line up. You describe the 1500B as an 'ultra lightweight 37 Strad' - did Kanstul change the 1537 to be similar to a standard weight Strad?


I don't know the story behind the 1500B, but it used a 37 bell made from .016" brass sheet, rather than the normal .020" stock that most of Zig's trumpets start with, including the 1537. It also had twin braces between the upper and lower mouthpipe/tuning slide tubes.

When the original 1537 was released, it used the same valve barrels as the custom class trumpets (700, 900 & 103). When the 1537P was released, it changed to the Signature valve barrels, lightweight finger buttons ( the original had Bach style MOP) and a heat treated bell.

The 1537 was developed to give Charlie Davis a new trumpet that played as well as his "exceptional" Mt. Vernon Bach and it was hoped that Kanstul could catch some of the demand for 37 Strads left unmet at the time because of the strike at Conn-Selmer. Even though neither of those goals were completely met, the trumpet world now has the benefit of a very fine alternative to the venerable classic Bach 37.

Brian
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevericks wrote:
Wish we knew which (if any) Olds that Zig was thinking about when he began designing the 1500. Any guesses?

ya know..it is quite possible that Zig was thinking outside the Olds "box." Not saying for absolute sure, just sayin', ya know?

stevericks wrote:
The "M" horn? Is that significant for something?

As I mentioned, the naming of that horn went thru several changes including having no name at all other than the Kanstul Copper-bell Bb trumpet.

The "Hal" was in reference to Hal Oringer, a very close friend to Zig (and all trumpeters), a professional photographer, amateur player and avid trumpet collector with many, MANY vintage Besson & Benges in his extensive collection. Before anyone asks, Hal passed away several years back and his collection was distributed around by his will.

Hal had an extensive knowledge of trumpets, mouthpieces, players and trumpet history. It was always a pleasure to hang with him and absorb as much history as one could absorb.

Why "M"? No reason in particular that I'm aware of. I do know, from having shown that horn to hundreds of trumpet guys, that after playing a few notes many would utter the sound "mmmmmmm" (as in a good thing).

But that is only my observation. It took Zig quite a while to come up with a way of designating the horns in his lineup, a process that still gets adjusted to this day.

Bottom line is he makes some amazing horns that are wunnerful to play, right?
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me add that the adding of a number to a horn is not only for marketing, but also for keeping track of during the making of and for inventory management.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straying a bit far afield here, but... I have a French Besson made by Kanstul, the model (one of them) that Marvin Stamm worked with Kanstul to produce, .464 bore and the A bell.

Which of the Kanstul line would this horn most closely resemble, I wonder? Wonderful darker (in my opinion) tone, easy (perfect) blow... But I've wondered often if it bore resemblance to any particular Kanstul line - having been made by him. Thanks - if you can.
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
RNJTrumpet wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Kanstul Signature and Chicago Trumpet series and their design inspirations:

1500B - ultra lightweight 37 Strad

1537 - 37/25 Strad


Brian, I was under the impression the 1537 replace the 1500B in the Kanstul line up. You describe the 1500B as an 'ultra lightweight 37 Strad' - did Kanstul change the 1537 to be similar to a standard weight Strad?


I don't know the story behind the 1500B, but it used a 37 bell made from .016" brass sheet, rather than the normal .020" stock that most of Zig's trumpets start with, including the 1537. It also had twin braces between the upper and lower mouthpipe/tuning slide tubes.

When the original 1537 was released, it used the same valve barrels as the custom class trumpets (700, 900 & 103). When the 1537P was released, it changed to the Signature valve barrels, lightweight finger buttons ( the original had Bach style MOP) and a heat treated bell.

The 1537 was developed to give Charlie Davis a new trumpet that played as well as his "exceptional" Mt. Vernon Bach and it was hoped that Kanstul could catch some of the demand for 37 Strads left unmet at the time because of the strike at Conn-Selmer. Even though neither of those goals were completely met, the trumpet world now has the benefit of a very fine alternative to the venerable classic Bach 37.

Brian


Thanks for the great info Brian. Interesting, even though 1537 replaced the 1500B, they have different weight bells - which can make a significant difference!

Will Kanstul still make a 1500B, or do I have to hunt one down?
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KanstulBrass
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Wendt has been a long-time tester, supporter, and close friend of the company for decades. Nearly all the professional trumpets built by Kanstul were introduced at NAMM by Tim Wendt! He's also a trusted friend and one of the best players I know. He knows the Kanstul line as well as anyone, especially the original models. Thanks, Tim, for sharing your knowledge!

JonathanM: there is nothing in the Kanstul catalog that is like the Stamm Besson.

RNJTrumpet: the 1500-B was replaced in our catalog with the 1537. We can, however, still make the 1500-B for you.

all the best!
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles; Greetings and thanks for the info.
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Jonathan Milam
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the number of folks who seek out vintage Olds trumpets and the Kanstul lineage, it seems unusual that the Olds Recording, Super, and others haven't found their way into production.
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffM729 wrote:
Given the number of folks who seek out vintage Olds trumpets and the Kanstul lineage, it seems unusual that the Olds Recording, Super, and others haven't found their way into production.


As much as I would like to see this too, Zig has other interests besides trumpets.

Kanstul recently came out with a new line of tubas and french horns. So rather than coming out with yet another 'line' of trumpets - to an already extensive line-up - recovering R&D/investment is priority-one.

There are limited resources and only so many hours in a day.
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