Help - Trying to avoid junk horns...

GaryTorello · Regular Member Joined: 09 Sep 2003 Posts: 14

Hi all! I am currently trying to purchase a good student horn for my 10yo son on a TIGHT budget, and there is apparently a glut of junk horns on the market -- and it's been over 20 years since I blew a horn so ANY help would be appreciated. E-bay seems to be full of indian brass paperweights, other sites offer what *sounds* like good stuff for under $200.. but I'm certainly not up on the latest.

Thanks in advance!

Gary Torello
35yo Orpheum trumpet under dust in back of closet

Mean Liberal · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:47 am Post subject:

Olds Ambassador ($150), as always.
_________________
Chaz Ross

Bb Trumpets: Bach Stradivarius 37, Mt. Vernon Bach Mercury

Mouthpiece: Schilke 11

OldKid · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Posts: 135

Are you interested in New or used? As a beginning band teacher I can tell you to stay away from the $159 special you see at the discount stores and on ebay. The solder joints don't hold and the plating comes off the valves in about a year leaving you with a piece of junk and a disappointed kid. There should be a ton of used stuff however that will more than do the job. Stick to the brand names that you know and you should be fine. I started on an Olds Ambassador like so many other members did so I'm partial to them. However Bach, Yamaha, King, and Conn make good horns as well. A student came in the other day with an old Getzen Cornet. It has the fastest valves I ever played. I think you already know what to stay away from.

[ This Message was edited by: oldkid on 2003-09-10 21:47 ]

[ This Message was edited by: OldKid on 2003-09-10 21:48 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:28 am Post subject:

Just search eBay for Olds Ambassador and you'll find a bunch of horns that would be great for your purpose. They're built like a bridge and have great valve assemblies. Look for a horn made in the 50s or 60s, when Olds was at its peak.

Search Alan Rouse's site, Olds Central, for more info. Naturally, you'll want to look for a horn that's as problem-free as possible, so be sure to scrutinize the seller's description and photo(s) carefully, and ask questions about the valves, compression, felts, corks, missing parts, etc.

After you've found one to buy, be sure to take it completely apart and give it a good bath with dish detergent. If your budget allows, a professional cleaning would be a good idea. Many eBay horns have been in the attic for years and will need to be cleaned.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.â€ Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

cujazztrpt · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:05 am Post subject:

Olds Ambassador!!!
_________________
Playing music is better than playing notes!
www.soundclick.com/cujazztrpt

drunkiq · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:03 am Post subject:

from the trumpet gearheard - http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/

Q: Yeah, but my kid is just starting out, what kind of horn should I get him?

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A:

If you are unsure that the kid is going to stick with the horn for at least a year, it might make sense to go with the local music store's rental program, preferably on a Yamaha or Bach student model, though the other major makers (King, Conn, Getzen, Holton) make similar satisfactory horns. If you are confident that the kid is going to stick with it, here is what I recommend. I concede there are a number of satisfactory ways to skin this cat, but here are a couple of ideas.

Cornets are similar to trumpets, but shorter. One could get into a lengthy technical discussion about this subject, but not here not now. Suffice it to say that especially with younger students or students of small stature, a cornet is somewhat easier to start with since they are shorter and the cornet's center of gravity is closer to the player's body, making it easier to play. My attitude, macho man at age 12, when I was first starting was, "I don't want no stinkin' cornet--I want a trumpet!" left my parents little choice. My daughter, however, when she started at age 11, played a good used Getzen cornet that I bought for $65 at a music store liquidation sale. It was a good decision.

At this point, with national markets available, I would buy an Olds Ambassador trumpet or cornet on eBay (search for "Olds Ambassador trumpet") for around $100 to start my kid on, unless I thought my kid would be significantly motivated by how shiny the horn is.

Olds made over a million brass instruments, but went out of business in 1979 or so. Their Ambassador line of student brass instruments was the best ever and there are many many of those horns still out there. I started on one myself and recently purchased one on eBay for my high school age daughter to use for marching band. These are great playing horns, often better than other companies' allegedly professional models, built to withstand all the rigors of the school band room, marching field, and street. They were built to be played at Armegedon. But these horns are not the prettiest things around at this point because even the newest ones are at least 20 years old and most were finished in lacquered brass and the lacquer has often at least partially worn away. Some of the more expensive (in this context that means over $100) eBay examples can, however, look nearly new. Others are worn and in need of repair and they often sell for under $50, but I wouldn't bother with those. Look at the more expensive ones--they are essentially ready to go and the comparable new horn would be 3 to 4 times as expensive. But they may have splotchy lacquer.

If you think that the kid would likely be more successful, i.e., more motivated to practice, on something that is new and shiny (that is not a moral failing, it is just being a kid), I would buy a used recent model Yamaha student horn. They have model numbers like YTR 2320 (probably the most common, they'd all be anywhere from 2 to 10 years old), the YTR 2325 would be newer, and the YTR 232 would be older. I'd stick with the newer ones myself, but you might stumble on a good deal for a YTR 232 in unusually good condition (search on "Yamaha trumpet"). You can get one that looks very close to new for anywhere between $150 and $200. The Yamaha student horns are the best ones available, in my opinion. A used one, with good care, can likely be sold for nearly what you paid for it (but it is wise to keep one's student trumpet for marching when he or she gets to high school).

If you wish to live more dangerously, student models by Bach, Getzen, Holton, Conn and King are also satisfactory, though not as playable in my mind as the Yamaha. In any event, stick with one of those brand names. Avoid Winston, Amati, Monique, Lark, Heimer, or anything else made in China, India, Pakistan or Eastern Europe. Avoid Taiwan unless it is a Jupiter.

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|| The Trumpet Gearhead ||

adieste · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:23 am Post subject:

Just about every professional player over age 40 I know started on an Olds ambassador. Just about every professsional player I know under age 40 started on a Yamaha.

"Thus endeth the lesson." Sean Connery, "The Untouchables"
_________________
Trumpet: 1975 Benge CG, 1964 Martin Committee
Flugelhorn: 1963 and 1973 Olds L-12
Cornet: 1895 Conn Wonder, 1915 Buescher 57C
Pocket Trumpet: Funky No-Name Thing
Alto Sax: 1965 Buescher Aristocrat
Tenor Sax: 1956 Buffet Crampon Paris

PJB · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:31 am Post subject:

My neighbor presented this same issue to me almost a year ago. Two of his sons were going into band, they had met with their band director, and they had decided that one was going to play alto sax and the other was going to play trumpet. My neighbor had already looked into local instrument rental programs (Yamaha instruments) and asked me what I thought about the pricing. He also told me that he would not allow either of the kids to bail out of lessons for at least a year.

I ran the numbers for him and suggested he purchase both student line horns (in my opinion Yamaha builds a very good student line horn) from Washington Music Center. That way, he would have residual value in the horns after one year that he would not have with the rental program unless he purchased horns from the rental dealer. By the way, the local dealer was discounting his prices a bit but Washington Music had much better pricing. He followed my advice and his boys are now completing their first year of lessons.

As it turns out, the sax player loves the instrument and is going to stay with it. On the other hand, the trumpet player has decided to give up the horn and become a drummer. My neighbor intends to sell the trumpet to another band parent. As it works out, I doubt if his first year horn depreciation cost will exceed $100, a much better alternative to paying the rental of $29/month for a year.
_________________
Pete Blaise

1974 Benge 3X Bb
1950 Olds Super
2002 Yamaha Xeno 8445GS C
2004 Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugel

plp · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:34 am Post subject:

The Ambassadors are great horns, but I would also suggest the Holton 602 series. Buyers have targeted ebay for the Olds horns, while I am still picking up Holtons in the 30 to 50 dollar range. These are well made horns, and the laquer seems to hold up pretty good for a used instrument.

As much as I love Conns, I would not recommend any of the Directors. While there are some great ones out there, several of the ones I have purchased have not stood the test of time, and seem to be particularly susceptable to red rot, more so than the Olds and Holtons.

plp · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:06 pm Post subject:

Saw this one as an example and thought I would link it. Even after the repairs to the bell, you can probably get out of this with a great horn for under 300.00. And for the record, I am not the seller, nor will I make a dime one way or another.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2555879037&category=16214

bophead · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:28 pm Post subject:

Kanstul makes an excellent line of student and intermediate horns. You can see them at kanstulmusic.net. Best of luck!
_________________
Earl
CG Benge

merf · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:54 pm Post subject:

OLDS AMBASSADOR

[ This Message was edited by: merf on 2003-09-10 19:55 ]

BeboppinFool · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:01 pm Post subject:

Olds Ambassador is probably the best suggestion so far.

However, the Reynolds Medalist is essentially the same horn, and they frequently go for even less than Ambassadors on eBay.

The first thing Foster Reynolds did when he went to work for Olds was to design the Ambassador. Then, when he set out on his own (again?), he made comparable horns to much of the Olds line. The Medalist and Emperor are essentially the Ambassador and the Special. The Contempora is much like the Super, etc.

An Ambassador, depending on how you want to look at it, is really a Reynolds.

Rich

P.S. I think Scootsky has a Reynolds Medalist that I sold him . . . maybe he can vouch for them, also.
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

Scootsky · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:13 pm Post subject:

Gary,
I did indeed buy a Reynolds Medalist cornet from the RichBo. It now rides in my pick up and I get a warm up during the morning and afternoon commute. At lunch I sometimes go across the street to our empty warehouse and do the sound stage thing. Makes me sound real good. It’s got a good solid cornet sound and is constructed like an Olds. This one was made in Abilene, TX s/n 210XXX. I saw one that sold last week on E-Bay for around $65. I have a 1963 Olds cornet which sounds a bit brighter then the Reynolds. I use a Conn 1-1/4 C MP on my cornets while saving up the milk and egg money for a Sparx #3.
I would also recommend the T602 line of Holton trumpets, A solid decent sounding well build horn for the money. The T602 are build in the US. The T602R, T602RC, T602MK ,etc are non-domestic horns. I have a T602RC that was ‘Made in Japan’ and plays and sounds like a Yamaha 232, 2332 trumpet. E-Bay price for a Holton trumpet is from $80-200. Music store price for a used Holton trumpet is about $500-700. You need to budget $30-40 to get an E-bay horn chem cleaned with felts and corks.
Anyway, if you lived close by I would loan you a horn to get you started. What is the ‘Orpheum trumpet under dust in back of closet’ anyway?

–Gary Scott

[ This Message was edited by: Scootsky on 2003-09-10 23:14 ]

drdoct · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:02 am Post subject:

I've got a Kanstul 610 that I really love in silverplate. I'm helping someone at church with exactly the same problem so I emailed Kanstul regarding the Besson 609. Charles Hargett @Kanstul told me that the 609 was very close to the 610 and would be a great buy if I could find them. They mostly sell in nice condition for under $200 on ebay. And then of course the Ambassador is the other recommendation, but you dont usually get the shiny horn value with those that most kids want.

GaryTorello · Regular Member Joined: 09 Sep 2003 Posts: 14

Wow! THANKS EVERYONE for all the really great replies and help! I'm now tracking about 25 different horns on Ebay and hopefully I can now get the most bang for the buck. (Olds/Yamaha/Holton) I'm amazed the rave reviews that the Ambassador rec'd-- it's the same horn I learned on 35 years ago! I guess at age 11 I didn't appreciate it... and I'm now kicking myself that I sold it.

P.S. to Gary Scott-- The "Orpheum" I referred to is my only remaining horn.. which I blow maybe once every 3 years

and I know NOTHING about it, except that I received it as a gift from a Jazz Musician (Sal Ronsi) friend of my father who I'm told made a great living playing the jazz clubs back in the 50's. It's a unique tri-color horn Copper/Gold/Silver and has the single "name" ORPHEUM engraved vertically on the bell. It wasn't new when I receieved it either so it could be quite old- it came form his collection. If anyone knows anything about this horn it'd be nice to know... may even be worth considering having completely refurbished.

Thanks again!

Gary Torello

GaryTorello · Regular Member Joined: 09 Sep 2003 Posts: 14

Jut wanted to say THANKS AGAIN everyone for all the great advice! I finally found what I hope will be a good starter horn for my son (and yes.. "Shiny-ness" was a key requirement to a 10yo).. Anyway.. got an e-bay horn -- Conn Doc Severinsen model $177

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2556280512

I'm so jazzed (unavoidable pun) by this whole process I think I might just start getting my lip back in shape after 30 odd years!

THANKS SO MUCH TO ALL WHO REPLIED!