Carolbrass CTR-5000L-YST vs CTR-7770L-YST

OldEmo

Does anyone have experience with Carolbrass CTR-7770L-YST? It seems
similar to the popular CTR-5000L-YST except for the tuning slide brace and the waterkeys. I also saw comments on Facebook and Ebay mentioning subtle differences, notably the former being somewhat more "tame". Someone also said that it's really a different trumpet. My guess would be that they tried to improve on the CTR-5000L-YST with the new design?

Trumpet playing is a hobby for me, albeit one I spend significant
amounts of time on. I'm mostly into jazz but I am not looking for the
dark, mellow "in" sound, but rather for something brighter. I do not
need to blend with others. I like an open blow with fast response and
slotting a bit on the flexible side, not nailed to the center.

I currently play a vintage EMO World (apparently similar to a Selmer
Balanced) and a B&S Challenger 3137/2. My EMO is about 60-70 years old and for that in pretty good shape, but it is really heavy (in terms of physical weight), intonation is somewhat challenging and it responds poorly below low C. I love its sound, though. The Challenger II is right on spot with intonation, responds well in the lower register, but it has a pretty high resistance which I don't like and to my ears (and my son's) it sounds, well, boring. Great for classical or section work I guess, but that's not what I want.

Reason why I'm asking about Carolbrass is because I play tested their intermediate CTR-4000H Bb model, which was quite impressive for the price. Very even response across the range, good intonation similar to or better than my B&S, really nice valves. Just the sound I found a little too thin for my taste. The Thai distributor had only this model on display, so I have to rely on hearsay for the better models.

One of the said Carolbrass models might be what I'm looking for. I'd appreciate any comments from someone who has played them.

TrentAustin · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject:

I think if you want more core than the 4000 check out the twin-tube 6280h. It is an excellent choice!
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OldEmo · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject:

Relic · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject:

I've sold 121 CarolBrass to date and do know their subtle differences. Yes, the CTR-7770L-YST is a different trumpet. It shares some dimensions and the bell with the CTR-5000L-YST, but besides the different bracing it uses a different leadpipe that changes its playing characteristics. Doesn't sound to me like this would be the horn for you. The CTR-5000L-YST is definitely our brightest and most responsive trumpet. In its standard .460 bore configuration its slotting may be a little too tight forwhat you describe that you desire. What I would consider if I were you is to order one in the .465 bore, as these horns tend to loosen up as the bore is increased, and play it with our lightweight valve caps. These still don't require a lot of wind with the increase in bore and the powerful upper register is still easy. The large slow taper leadpipe on these is what makes them perform, and the lightweight bell is what gives them such great response. You may think that the .465 bore wouoldn't be as responsive and bright as the .460, but to increase the bore, they kept the same O.D. on the tubing and increased the inside diameter. This lighter weight tubing brings back the liveness and brightness that a larger bore could otherwise lose. With the .465 bore it would be ordered as a CTR-5002L-YST, with an L suffix for lacquer or S for silver.
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OldEmo · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the elaborate recommendation, your suggestion sounds good to me. Have you tested a CTR-5002-YST yourself? How much does the slotting loosen up with the larger bore - are we talking just a little more elastic or more like a giraffe on ice...? The tone should as a tendency get a bit fuller but with more overtones due to larger bore with thinner material, correct?

Relic · Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:19 am Post subject:

Just a little more elastic is a good description. Even the .470 bore doesn't get to the giraffe on ice stage. And your evanluation of the sound is right on the money. And you can keep all the bright and responsive playability and get an even fuller basic core sound if you order one of these with the lightweight LARGE (72) bell. Same .016 thickness but with a larger taper. The large size would give it a YLT bell designation.

Yes, I have played these. I personally prepare and play test every CarolBrass horn we sell at California Music Supply, plus working the CarolBrass booth at the NAMM show gives me an opportunity to play any models we haven't had in stock yet. They are all different, but they are all good!
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OldEmo · Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:12 am Post subject:

Interesting combination - light weight, large bore, large bell taper, all yellow brass. Sounds dangerous. I think I like it

Thanks again, this was really helpful.

Relic · Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:33 am Post subject:

About a year and a half ago when they were still called CTR-500T, a big band lead trumpet customer replaced his Zeno and Raptor with the CTR-5000L-YST equivalent. After his first gig using the new horn his comment to me was, YOU COULD KILL SOMBODY WITH THIS THING! Dangerous? Perhaps if he had bought the combination we're talking about he already would have killed someone.... at least a sax player in the front row. But they're fair game!
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OldEmo · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:12 am Post subject:

Wow - two months lead time for this model because they have to make it for me, I've been told by the Thai distributor. Seems they are really busy. I'll let you know how it turns out.

TrentAustin · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:16 am Post subject:

Two months of a wait for a Custom horn is pretty short these days actually. Check out the wait times of some of the other makers!

Keep us posted!
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jblo · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:47 am Post subject:

I have some interest in these two horns as well. I played a 5000L-YST briefly and found the resistance above the staff a little more than I preferred. Overall, the blow was a little on the small side, but the upper register was just a little too tight for me. Was kicking around trying the YLT version. Can anyone comment on how the blow compares?
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Jason Blome

Bb - CarolBrass CTR-5205L-YLT-P
Cornet - CarolBrass CCR-6880-YLS-P
C - CarolBrass CTR-6262H-YSS-P-C
Flug - CarolBrass CFL-6200-RSS-L
Picc - CarolBrass CPC-7735F-YLS-P

OldEmo · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:48 am Post subject:

Interesting - so far all comments i saw on the 5000L-YST pointed towards a very open blow. For what it's worth, the 4000H I tested felt very open, too, also above the staff; but I can't comment on how the two models really compare. I used a Wedge 3CC 25 throat mouthpiece with a regular weight TT size steel backbore (rather tight commercial type).

Perhaps the combination of your mpc with the 5000L was a less than optimal fit? Maybe the gap got too small with your mpc?

OldEmo · Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:41 am Post subject:

I got my custom Carol Brass trumpet today, a large bore CTR-5002L-YLT as it was recommended above. I inspected it thoroughly and I did not find any visible flaws so far. Very well made indeed.

I practiced a lot today with the new horn, and quickly opted for the light springs and thin buttons. I tried the D shaped tuning slide first but after some time I found the round one more suitable for me as it loosens up the slotting more.

The trumpet feels very open and is very easy to play, I noticed especially the good response at low volumes. It takes more air than I'm used to, but that's a good thing as I tend to use too little. At the same time I found it less tiring to play, especially in the higher range. The valves are a real joy, too. I really have to watch it that my fingers don't run away.

I use Wedge 3CC and 3DC mouthpieces with a regular weight backbore. Interestingly, my son found the sound of the latter softer, and I thought so, too. Normally it should be the opposite?

Intonation is very good and even except for C# for which I have to throw the 3rd tuning slide nearly an inch if I don't want to lip it down much, but D is not that bad. The rest is easily manageable, especially with the round tuning slide in place.

The sound is quite bright, which is what I wanted. Of course I still have to get used to the new instrument and the sound will still change, but I must say that while the Carol Brass sounds quite nice at this point my old EMO World clearly beats the CTR-5002-YLT in terms of sound quality, if there is such a thing - both are quite bright, but the EMO has more substance to the sound and such a unique ringing overtone spectrum. The EMO has a lot of drawbacks, like worse intonation and response, less dynamics, heavier/slower valves, more tiring to play, but the sound - never heard anything like it. Well, can't have it all in one horn, I guess.

I'm happy with my new horn because I'm able to control it much better than my old one, it is so much easier to get from it what I want. Practising is much more effective this way, and this was really the reason why I wanted it - to help improving my playing skills with better feedback from a more responsive instrument. The perfect horn for that, I think.

gregplo · Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the update and review. I currently have a CTR-5204L-YST, and I have a CTR-4344L-YLT on order. I love the CTR-5204L, but wanted something that would give me a little more core to my sound for some venues, so I chose the Phosphorous Bronze for the body of the horn, with the large, yellow brass bell, and the same taper leadpipe (the more open of the leadpipes) as the CTR-5204. Hoping to get more core but retain the ability to "light it up" when called for. I'm looking forward to getting it sometime in June.
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OldEmo · Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:58 am Post subject:

After two weeks with my new CTR-5002L-YLT I have to correct myself. The sound did change quite a lot after I got more used to the instrument, it starts to develop personality. Its timbre is very variable depending on amount of air and embouchure, it can sound soft and mellow and it can also get pretty harsh if desired. Different mouthpieces also make a big difference, more so than on my old trumpet.

I didn't like the 3C mouthpiece that came with the instrument at first, but since it was already there, I gave it a try over some days. Its cup feels deeper than my Wedge 3CC, and the lower register sounds better with it, too. Overall darker, also needs more effort in the higher register, but for whatever reason I can hit the notes more securely all across my range. It's not bad at all, good to have it.

gus · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 452

The day Carol manufactures a Eb/D I will be on the list.

Another question for the experts. Difference between 4000 and 4002 C trumpet? and how do they play

Thanks Gus

jblo · Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:32 am Post subject:

Gus,

I asked them about the Eb/D directly on facebook and they are expecting to have that horn next year.
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Jason Blome

Bb - CarolBrass CTR-5205L-YLT-P
Cornet - CarolBrass CCR-6880-YLS-P
C - CarolBrass CTR-6262H-YSS-P-C
Flug - CarolBrass CFL-6200-RSS-L
Picc - CarolBrass CPC-7735F-YLS-P

TrentAustin · Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:36 am Post subject:

gregplo · Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:32 am Post subject:

OldEmo · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:07 am Post subject:

Thought I should share this - quite unusual customer service.

I found that on my Carolbrass CTR-5002-YLT both supplied tuning slides were so loose they would move on their own when starting to play, but after about half an hour of practice they would fit just fine. It seems like this was due to the high temperature here in Thailand and the fact that the trumpet takes some time to cool down after starting the aircon in my practice room.

I asked Carolbrass customer service about this and they explained that since they use perfectly rounded tubes with very low tolerances for the tuning slides, it could very well be a thermal issue. Without me actually asking for it, they offered to make a custom pair of tuning slides (rounded and D-shaped) with a tighter fit and ship them to me free of charge. I just received them yesterday, and they do fit as promised.

I must admit I'm still puzzled.