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Christophomicus Regular Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: Best way to unstick a tuning slide? |
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Sorry if this is the wrong forum, folks; I couldn't find any that were more suitable for such a question, and hey, maybe this will lead to some interesting discussion.
A friend of mine has given me his trumpet with a stuck tuning slide, and for the life of me I cannot get it unstuck. I work at a music shop, and I've taken it into work, and even my boss can't get it unstuck either! We've tried the following methods:
- Tie cloth around, tug on cloth
- We've got a small piece of wood that fits in the indent and has felt on the end so as not to dent it; put that in and gave it a few solid hits with the hammer. No dents, but no movement either.
- WD-40 on the outside, left for 1 hour.
- Valve oil on the outside, left for 1 hour.
- WD-40 and valve oil down the leadpipe, trumpet positioned so that the liquid is over the trouble spot, left for 4 hours.
- Heating the problem area with an open flame for a few seconds (boss' idea, not mine!)
And none of these have made any difference. I'm at my wit's end, TH, and any advice you can give me would be most appreciated. @_@ _________________ -Bach 180-37LR, B&S Challenger 3137/2, Getzen Eterna, Conn Constellation
-Bach Stradivarius 184ML, CarolBrass 3880 GSS-BB-SLB
-ACB Doubler's Flugel |
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FrankM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Posts: 545 Location: Lincolnshire England
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: |
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This has happened to me twice with newly bought 2nd hand instruments. Sounds like you've exhausted the DIY possibilities. My tech had to dissmantle the leadpipe & solder a plug into the sleeve so he had something to work against. Not a DIY job for the average player. Good luck. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:17 am Post subject: |
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You could give it an ultrasonic bath if such equipment is available. This might loosen the dirt and corroded material that hold the slide in place. It should not make things worse. |
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Christophomicus Regular Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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While I would love to have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, no such luck! Out of curiosity, how much do they cost ballpark? I've been toying with the idea of getting one for a while now, and I should even be able to get work to front the cost.
Looks like I'm going to have to resort to fairly hardcore methods to get this beastie unstuck - at this rate I'd sooner recommend him a new trumpet than the effort it's going to take to fix this! Thanks for your suggestions thus far folks. _________________ -Bach 180-37LR, B&S Challenger 3137/2, Getzen Eterna, Conn Constellation
-Bach Stradivarius 184ML, CarolBrass 3880 GSS-BB-SLB
-ACB Doubler's Flugel |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177
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FrankM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Posts: 545 Location: Lincolnshire England
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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My latest one was a Yamaha 6335H & the invoice lists unsoldering 4 joints at a total cost of £42 ($66). So well worth doing on a decent instrument, perhaps not if it's a cheapo student horn. You're talking serious money for an ultrasonic cleaner big enough to take a whole trumpet. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:22 am Post subject: |
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A shop might even buy a cleaner big enough to accommodate disassembled trombones and lower brass. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7010 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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WD-40 is not really a solvent, which may be what's needed to dissolve the corrosion that is causing the problem. You might try Liquid Wrench. Is it available in AUS? A few well placed drops around the outside and down the leader pipe, then left to soak a few hours, might do the trick.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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oldblow Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 676 Location: Mitchell, Georgia
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
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A while back, I bought a new-looking Bach 310, just to try a shepherd's crook cornet. It looked brand new, except for a couple of minor dings. The tuning slide was extended about 1/8th inch. When I tried to move it, it was stuck. Considering the overall condition of the horn, I thought that a tug or a tap would get me in business. (At this point, I'll cut to the end of the story.)
End of Story: Some kid had put super glue on the slide to hold it in place. Obviously, he had not lubricated the slide either, so the glue worked wonderfully. My tech had to unsolder ever thing etc, in order to get the thing off and operable.
The effort was worth it. With a Boston Musical Instrument mouthpiece in it, I have a cheap flugel sound. _________________ Felton (Butch) Bohannon |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3630 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I would strongly advise against ultrasonic or any other cleaning agent until you get the thing apart. Being able to scrub out all the loose stuff and then putting separated parts in the tank is the right way to start.
The posters talking about disassembly and individual pulling of slides are on the right track - that's often how it's done.
Another way is Ferree's E90 tuning slide pliers. They work if the slide is pulled out a bit and you can get a grip in front of the ferrule connected to the top or bottom of the crook.
If you soak in penetrating oil, it might be weeks before you get results. Depends on how old it is, how long it's been stuck, etc. |
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Christophomicus Regular Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | WD-40 is not really a solvent, which may be what's needed to dissolve the corrosion that is causing the problem. You might try Liquid Wrench. Is it available in AUS? A few well placed drops around the outside and down the leader pipe, then left to soak a few hours, might do the trick.
Brian |
I'll have to have a look around in Bunnings (our equivalent to Home Depot) next time I'm out. Thanks for the idea Brian. The bottom of the slide moves out about 1/8 of an inch, but the top remains steadfastly stuck. I'm deliberately not pulling ultra hard so that I don't end up bending the damn thing...
And thanks to everyone else thus far as well! The horn is an old YTR235. Nothing too special, but it's from the Japan era of Yamaha trumpets as opposed to the Chinese makes these days, so I'm trying not to destroy the poor old thing. _________________ -Bach 180-37LR, B&S Challenger 3137/2, Getzen Eterna, Conn Constellation
-Bach Stradivarius 184ML, CarolBrass 3880 GSS-BB-SLB
-ACB Doubler's Flugel |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of kilos of C4 should do it.
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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There was a thread on Trumpet Master the other day about that horn; basically the recommended procedure is to cut the slide in half and pull it, replacing the slide with a new one. It's a one-piece slide with some ferrules on it.
You might want to go over there and take a look.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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jocar37 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 380 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Have you tried cold? Heat makes things expand, cold makes them ,contract. I don't know if your horn has a reverse tuning slide, but I'd try applying cold to smaller pipes. If that doesn't work, maybe try cold to the smaller pipes and a bit of heat to the larger ones. _________________ 1945 Martin Committee
1939 Martin Handcraft Committee
1963 Olds Recording
1906 F. Besson flugel |
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ADziuk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Posts: 545 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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jocar37 is on the right track, and if anyone has ever done any serious plumbing you will understand why this works.
If you have ever tried to break the solder on old copper pipe, you will know that you can NOT heat it up enough to reflow the solder if there is moisture or water in the pipe. The water is very efficient at dissipating heat.
What you need to do is pour ice cold water into the leadpipe, enough to fill much of the tuning slide with the horn vertical(standing on the bell), but not enough water to fill up into the leadpipe(this is important).
Then with the horn still standing up and the water inside the tuning slide, swab out the lead-pipe to get any moisture left over from pouring in the water. Take your shop torch on low setting and start heating up the leadpipe bit by bit. The tuning slide with water in it will dissipate the heat and stay cool, while the leadpipe will heat and expand and let go.
I've used this technique on a horn that had been sitting for 60+ years and it freed up. If you can't get it this way then it's time to start disassembly. _________________ "Everyone should carefully observe which way his heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength." |
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davidkoch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 1298 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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ADziuk wrote: | jocar37 is on the right track, and if anyone has ever done any serious plumbing you will understand why this works.
If you have ever tried to break the solder on old copper pipe, you will know that you can NOT heat it up enough to reflow the solder if there is moisture or water in the pipe. The water is very efficient at dissipating heat.
What you need to do is pour ice cold water into the leadpipe, enough to fill much of the tuning slide with the horn vertical(standing on the bell), but not enough water to fill up into the leadpipe(this is important).
Then with the horn still standing up and the water inside the tuning slide, swab out the lead-pipe to get any moisture left over from pouring in the water. Take your shop torch on low setting and start heating up the leadpipe bit by bit. The tuning slide with water in it will dissipate the heat and stay cool, while the leadpipe will heat and expand and let go.
I've used this technique on a horn that had been sitting for 60+ years and it freed up. If you can't get it this way then it's time to start disassembly. |
Brilliant! I've never thought of anything like that. Now I wish I had something to try that on! *knock on wood* _________________ Hi, my name is David and I'm a trumpetaholic. |
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Roberts-K Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Posts: 435 Location: Chattanooga,TN
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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ytou can also use penetrating oil and draw it down the slide with heat. hen it bubbles out and foams you can usually break it loose. Helps to have special slide removal pliers from Ferree's too! _________________ 2010 Lawler 25th C7 XL
Lalwer LF-1 Flugel |
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DavesTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 1712 Location: Shreveport, LA
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Re: The special slide removing pliers used on Yamaha student horns. Yamaha doesn't use a typically fashioned slide (two inner slide tubes, crook, two ferrules) on their student model instruments. On these horns the crook and inner slide tubes are all one piece. The ferrules ARE NOT SOLDERED and the slide pliers WILL NOT WORK. You'll just end up pushing the ferrules further up and along the tuning slide bend and the slide won't budge. Just saving you the time and expense. Been there/done that so many times on these horns it's not funny. _________________ Dave M
www.electrotheremin.com/bach.html
www.soundcloud.com/davestrumpet
www.facebook.com/DavesTrumpet
www.youtube.com/DavesTrumpet
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Wild Vine New Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 9
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Best way to unstick a tuning slide? |
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Christophomicus wrote: | Sorry if this is the wrong forum, folks; I couldn't find any that were more suitable for such a question, and hey, maybe this will lead to some interesting discussion.
A friend of mine has given me his trumpet with a stuck tuning slide, and for the life of me I cannot get it unstuck. I work at a music shop, and I've taken it into work, and even my boss can't get it unstuck either! We've tried the following methods:
- Tie cloth around, tug on cloth
- We've got a small piece of wood that fits in the indent and has felt on the end so as not to dent it; put that in and gave it a few solid hits with the hammer. No dents, but no movement either.
- WD-40 on the outside, left for 1 hour.
- Valve oil on the outside, left for 1 hour.
- WD-40 and valve oil down the leadpipe, trumpet positioned so that the liquid is over the trouble spot, left for 4 hours.
- Heating the problem area with an open flame for a few seconds (boss' idea, not mine!)
And none of these have made any difference. I'm at my wit's end, TH, and any advice you can give me would be most appreciated. @_@ |
I had the same issue with an old martin committee. Although I soaked my in WD 40 overnight for about 12 hours. Some of the slides freed up. So I soaked it again for another 12 hours and finally got them all out.
Nick |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3630 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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"Yamaha doesn't use a typically fashioned slide (two inner slide tubes, crook, two ferrules) on their student model instruments. On these horns the crook and inner slide tubes are all one piece. The ferrules ARE NOT SOLDERED and the slide pliers WILL NOT WORK."
Dave's referring (I think) to the YTR2335. The OP wrote YTR235. That may be a model that was imported to Oz, but not the USA. Look down the inside of the tubing to determine if it is a one-piece crook. It's a most unfortunate idea, but I'm sure it saved money. (for them!) |
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