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mistrad37
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Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 87
Location: Indianapolis

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in a small dilema. Right now I am playing a straight 37 strad. I am very deep into jazz and have found that the 37 produces to "clean" of a sound. I am looking for a trumpet that is less bright and a little more free. I have heard that the new conn vintage one series produce a very nice sound. And of course everyone knows of the Mt. Vernon. I was wondering if someone could help me with a trumpet that I could play for Jazz. I am open to all suggestions.
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of this is personal opinion (of course). I know great jazz players who play everything under the sun. I also make a disclaimer:

I ENDORSE BACH, BUT THEY DO NOT PAY ME TO DO SO OR GIVE ME INSTRUMENTS. I will always try to be totally honest with you.

I play a Bach 37 just like you and it gives me exactly the kind of jazz sound that I want. Terrance & Winton play Monettes. The last time I checked Jim Rotondi & Tom Harrell play old Constellations. Lots of guys play old Martin Committees. Wallace plays the new one. Nicholas Payton plays the Conn New Vintage. Shew plays the Z horn. I think Randy and Tiger Okoshi play the Heavy Wall. Marvin plays that Boosey & Hawkes thing. Ingrid, Soloff & Terrell Stafford play Bach. Freddie Hubbard made his greatest recordings ('60s & early '70s) on a Bach student horn and the 7C that was in the case when he bought it at the music store!

You need to experiment with horns to find what gives you the sound you hear. You wouldn't fit in Shaq's gym shoes. Find the horn that fits the way you want to play.

However, remember that it is the person holding the pistol (not the gun) that guides the bullet to the target.
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Ken Roe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more.
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mistrad37
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Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 87
Location: Indianapolis

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it is the player that creates the sound, however my trumpet is way to bright to play solos on. If I am playing a bop head it really sounds like garbage if you don't have that laid back, deep, rich sound. Right now I sound like I belong in a concert setting with two other trumpets.
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_Don Herman
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe I've heard a Bach 37 bell described as "too bright" for jazz before; I have more often heard it described as too dark and unable to cut through a band well. Just to throw out the obvious questions: Have you tried a mouthpiece with a deeper cup, and/or practiced with the sound you want in mind to see if you can get it out the bell? It may also help if you described the type of jazz you play.

My experience with my Bach 37 is that it has a nice, mellow midrange, decent low range (e.g., below G in the staff), and stuffy upper register which makes it tough to play lead. My Wild Thing gives me a nice, rich, midrange but takes it all the way to the double and triple range (according to those who can play it up there -- my performance range is about high f/g right now, though I've squealed little piggy notes into the stratosphere). The WT is _much_ easier to play high on, and I find it much easier to change tone quality on it than on my Bach. (Plus all the usual endearing qualities, of course, that set it apart from standard horns.) Overall, I think my WT is darker than my old Bach, so maybe it's the horn for you.

Other "darker" horns include Bach 65, Yamaha heavyweights (Xeno and older models), Kanstul (esp. the copper-bell models), and Callichio (sp) copper models. I believe Callet makes a "dark" horn (Symphonique?), too (Lee or Bruce, ya' out there, buddies?) Obviously, I'd go with the WT, but if you want a more standard pro (not custom) line horn (and price) I'd suggest Kanstul or Yamaha. FWIW, I've read good things about Stomvi, but have never tried one.

I can't get over the feeling that a new horn won't solve your problem, however. I have to work to make my Bach sound "too bright". I suppose it may be because it's lacquer and not silver, but I really think the whole finish thing is over-rated as far as making big differences in sound goes. If I were you, I'd try a deeper mpc (perhaps with a V cup), and also try several other horns (take a friend, as it's sometimes hard to tell how you sound ten feet out in front) to see if something "clicks" for you. If possible, try some larger bores, too, but bear in mind that if you have endurance problems a large bore may accentuate them. OTOH, with good control a large bore can make your sound really fill the hall (at least it works with my WT ).

HTH - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley
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mistrad37
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently used my teachers Bach 37 stripped raw brass with the reverse #25 leadpipe. It has a light weight body with a standard weight bell. It gave me close to the sound that I wanted, and I was using my 3c mouthpiece that I use for all around use. I have tried Yamaha horns before, but they just aren't for me. I am a down stream player (one of the few) so I really like the 3c for use with jazz. Right when my air hits the bottom of the cup, it is shooting through the leadpipe. Lets see, the type of Jazz that I play: lots of Hubbard, Byrd, Shew, lots of fast big band charts. (Band 1 Blues 0 anyone?) The 37 is not free enough. I cannot bend notes on it like I can with the 37 that was stripped raw brass. I played in front of my teacher at ball state university and he could tell the difference. Believe it or not, the 37 gives a really bright tone. For me, I can hit double f/g/a/b anyday with the 3c and the trumpet, so I don't have any problems with high notes. The only thing is, if I am playing in a combo I never need that range. I just need high c and below. I understand you guys don't think that a 37 is bright, but seriously mine is.
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I have a 37 and a customized 37 lightweight and the lightweight is brighter. In the Bach line-up, I love the 72 with its big, broad sound and the less encountered 65 is Bach's darkest--and what Wynton was playing before he made the big bucks.

However, the darkest, richest jazz horn on the planet has got to be the Flip Oakes Wild Thing. Its got super fast response like a lightweight horn but with a fast flared, unique throat to the bell which gives it the real dark, broad sound. I love mine . . . its in a class by itself. .470 bore and real free blowing.

I sent it back to get a dent removed and had to play my Strad on a gig and the Bach felt like it had a sock rammed up the bell after playing the WT.

The WT designer, Flip Oakes is a "jazzer" on the west coast and, although it is a great classical horn too, it is a horn that really sings in a jazz environment!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2001-12-16 23:21 ]
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mistrad37
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Tom and to all who replied. I just got off of the phone with Flip Oakes, and let me tell you guys he is a wonderful person. Once when the money situation is better I am going to try out a wild thing. Now the question is should I choose the lacquer or the silver? Flip said that his silver horns produce more of a dark sound than the lacquer horns. He says that the weight of the plating makes it dark. What do you guys think?
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_Don Herman
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flip, besides being a great guy, is an excellent player, too. As a player and the designer, I'd go with his views and experience, which includes comments from all those who've played and own his horns (I've got three of 'em myself...) I wanted dark, and went with silver. I've never played the lacquer version, but can tell you that my silver WT is plenty dark and has a gorgeous, rich, full sound that will astound you after playing a Bach 37. Not to mention the fact that it is _so_ much easier to play, particularly in the upper register. As Tom implies, I could describe it all day but playing it is when the difference becomes obvious, to you and your listeners (see my and other testimonials here and on Flip's site).

FWIW, my research (no, I don't recall all the sources, go find 'em yourself if you're curious) indicates that finishes today have less bearing than in the past. Renold Schilke compared lacquer, silver, and raw brass and found no difference between silver and raw brass; the lacquer changed the sound (this is from RS' writings on The Schilke Loyalist site). However, current (and for some time now) lacquers are purportedly harder (hmmm...) and are applied in thinner coats than before (this I'll believe, if for no other reason than to save money) so there's less impact on sound. Given this, Flip's heavy silver plate may indeed help darken the WT's sound. I personally also like the look, longevity, and reduced maintenance of silver plate.

I personally think, based as much on gut feel as anything (alright, a few back of the envelope calculations were made a few years ago but I can't find my notes), that the impact of the finish on sound is practically insignificant compared with things like the mouthpiece, bell flare, and other attributes. The WT uses a significant number of design features (the bell is quite visible, but there are many others more hidden) to achieve the sound and performance Flip wanted -- and it took a number of years for him to dial it in. That's the advantage a custom horn designer has; he can tweak the design to suit him. If he's talented, careful, and lucky, it'll suit others as well and he has a product. Good marketing helps, too, but in Flip's case the marketing is largely word of mouth, by guys like Lee Adams, Tom Turner, numerous other pros and talented players, and I (only chance I have of being placed in a group with such talent!) who play Flip's horns.

Keeping the "wild" faith - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley
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tom turner
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

Don't forget to consider the gold one too, for it is the darkest of the bunch. That's what I have and I truly cherish and baby it.

A gold one has to begin as a silver one in order to get a suitable base metal applied for the gold to bond to. Obviously, this means a "slightly" thicker total plating depth, and there are probably other reasons why the gold is a little darker too. How much difference the gold makes, I don't know.

Another wonderful thing about a gold horn is that you don't have to (and should NEVER) polish it! The downside of gold is that it is softer so it scratches easier and eventually can rub off . . . and the horn will get more "silvery" looking.

No matter what you end up with, you will have a wonderful instrument that you'll cherish for years to come. Yeah, they are a little more money than assembly line pro-horns but if you factor out the purchase price over the planned life of the horn it just costs a little more per day.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner
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Cozy
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Joined: 07 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Wild Thing and Callet Jazz for their jazzy tones. An older Martin Committee is superb (see http://www.cozychops.com). My 60s Connstellation has a nice dark sound.
Yet, the mouthpiece has so much to do with the tone.
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dales
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at this http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/player-horn.html, it appears that the Martin Committee is the most often listed horn among players who are/were primarily jazz soloists. The Conn Connstellation appears to be #2, or maybe co-#1. Brevetes and other Bessons and King Silver Flairs show up a few times, too among soloists. It looks to me like the Schilke players are mostly lead guys, and that both leads and soloists play Yamaha. Of course many other models show up: Getzen, Holton, etc.
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mistrad37
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Posts: 87
Location: Indianapolis

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2001 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree. Committee's deliver that true jazz sound, the only problem is finding a good one. Cozy, this is Michael that was going to purchase your committee until funds got tight. That still is the problem, finding a good committee that is less than $1000! I am also looking at Lawlers and others.
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Redhothorn
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Joined: 08 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2001 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, I agree with Mr. C. (Quad C) ... a nice addition would be an STC-1 weight Monette Mouthpiece ... this would give you some darkness. A Monette horn would be a nice addition also if you are into "dark." The only "dark" I am into is my Signature Kanstul Flugel ... like dark honey.
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shaheim
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Joined: 14 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
3 horns that I like for jazz are the
Martin Commitee, the Bach large bore 25 model and the Flip Oakes WT. This is purely personal experience, so all disclaimers apply!

The Committee I guess is the timeless jazz horn, I have only played the new ones, not any vintage horn, but they were great sounding. Miles, here we go!. The problem is the intonation, requiring a lot of compensation to play in tune. This is weary on the chops, so I would only recommend the Committe to soloist players with good chops. I would very much want one, but it would be a horn for small group jazz only. Monette claims to have made a horn which sounds like a Committee but without the intonation problems (for Mark Isham). Now that would be something if I had the money...

The Bach 25 large bore is a rare model Bach for jazz players. I think it was made for symphonic playing in big orchestras, where big sound was required. I had one for 15 years and used it for a lot of jazz playing, mostly as a soloist with a piano player. When played softly it has a broad dark sound that I liked.

The WT was developed to be the optimal soloist horn, with a broad dark sound, but is really versatile. While it can sound broad and dark, it can also cut like a razor if you stick a small mouthpiece on it. Beware that you might need a different mouthpiece setup to really get the benefit! Now and then I use heavy bottom caps on it to darken it even more.

Play Well
Svein
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2001 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, lots of WT fans out there. Just to give a different perspective, here's my 2 cents....

I play a Calicchio now, and love it. At this point in my playing I wouldn't have anything else. I played a Yamaha Heavy Wall Mark I for almost 10 years before that, and it worked very well for me. I just find myself more in the lead and/or rock band situation enough to warrant the fabled Calicchio sound. However, the climate here (Boise, Idaho) has changed to more along the lines of lots of small group jazz. (I've gone from getting my regular work from 2 rock bands and a big band to 1 rock band and 3 combos. The big band is still around, but not working as much, stupid economy!) In these situations, the Calicchio is as much at home as any horn I have every played. Am I surprised? Yes. Am I taking advantage of it? Damn right!

I've had a few opportunities to play the WT, and it doesn't work for me. The .470 bore equates to blowing on an exhast pipe. There just isn't enough back pressure for me. Playing the rock gigs, I need that tight, compact and punchy vibe, and I found that when I borrowed my buddies WT, I was just flat out playing too big. There was too much air required for that all important balance of face, air, resistance and pressure.

Now the disclaimer....
Everyone playes differently, and everyone expects different things from their instruments. For the combination of equipment and what God gave ME, the Calicchio is by far the best call. But, the WT is obviously a popular axe in these parts! Get out there and try as many horns as you can! Good luck!

PS> Thank you to everyone who posts on here for their insight and knowledge. I know there is a lot of competition in the trumpet world, but it is refreshing to see people exchanging ideas and thoughts. We'll all be better players because of it.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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dutchman
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Joined: 13 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey everybody:

Don't you guys think that maybe producing optimal "solo" sound is less about equipment and more about attitude, style and individual technique?

FYI - I play a Schilke S32 and I really like it. It isn't exactly a miracle horn, but it is an outstanding and versatile workhorse that is very responsive and tunes very well. If you're looking for a horn that "cross-trains" then this may be a good idea.

Matt K
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dutchman,
I think you're right. I do believe that our optimal "jazz", or any other sound for that matter is based on perception.

The way that you approach both the horn and the music affects it.

For people trying to attain a particular sound or vibe, you really have to have that sound engrained in your ear. If you know what you want to sound like, then sit in the practice room and try to make that sound. Don't think too much, just envision the sound, and try to produce it. When players get to this point, they are advanced enough that a lot of their playing is second nature, and thinking too much about how you're doing something will be a detriment.

Sit in the dark until you're happy!

My two cents......
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gphorn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a goldplated Calicchio R32 made for me a couple years ago by Chris out in Hollywood. It has a nice deep dark tone that can be bent nicely for playing jazz and ballads. He told me that he designed it to have that old Martin Committee sound. Unfortunately, it didn't blend well in the "classical" arenas in which I was also playing or I would have used it all the time. I bought a Bach Strad LR180 with a 43 bell for that. It's a really bright classic sounding horn. I recently bought heavy valve caps for it and it is remarkable how much it darkens the horn. I could now probably use the Bach w/heavy caps for jazz too, but for soloing give me the R32 anytime.

[ This Message was edited by: gphorn on 2001-12-21 13:55 ]
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gphorn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a goldplated Calicchio R32 made for me a couple years ago by Chris out in Hollywood. It has a nice deep dark tone that can be bent nicely for playing jazz and ballads. Unfortunately, it didn't blend well in the "classical" arenas in which I was also playing or I would have used it all the time. I bought a Bach Strad LR180 with a 43 bell for that. It's a really bright classic sounding horn. I recently bought heavy valve caps for it and it is remarkable how much it darkens the horn. I could now probably use the Bach w/heavy caps for jazz too, but for soloing give me the R32 anytime.
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