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Type IV & Mouthpiece Size


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airdyn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Interview Reply with quote

Paul T. wrote:
That sounds familiar to me, as well. I'm a IIIA, so my placement is very high, but I also experiment with how much lower lip to have in the mouthpiece. Having a slightly more "open" setting (less lower lip in the mouthpiece) is easier, more comfortable, more familiar. Putting more lip in the mouthpiece, however, feels stronger, more compression, more "pucker".

I'm slowly gravitating over to the more "closed" setting, I think it gives me more advantages in the long run, and I have a feeling that it's what Reinhardt would have recommended, too.

Using good, solid pressure on the bottom "legs" really helps maintain that, of course.


Reading the Phil Horch interview with Doc is a must reading for any IIIA, as this answers many questions re: the lower lip for this type.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
I'm placing very low on my upper lip, almost no upper lip in the cup. When I focus on anchoring on the bottom teeth, I get a lower placement there, as well, and see tremendous benefits in range, control and compression. However, old habits tend to eventually make the teeth open and the mouthpiece ride up onto a more rolled-out lower lip; this feels more comfortable and sustainable, but doesn't work as well. I'm having a hard time deciding which one of these options will work best moving forward. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Confused Type I Guy, bg.


One choice is: " tremendous benefits in range, control and compression" ...

The other is: "doesn't work as well"

What's the question again?
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give it a shot, just out of curiosity: Brad can say whether we're on the same page or not.

The question is, I suspect, two-fold:

1. "This new setting seems to give benefits. But it's not so familiar, and hard to work with: it's not as comfortable to play with." Like more powerful but harder to control.

So, is this a good thing (the increased compression, etc), or some kind of temporary benefit that will cause problems in the long run? (Like how you can learn to "smile" and get a little bit of extra range that way, but you aren't doing yourself any favours in the long term.)

Brad's exploring here.

2. "I like this new setting, but it's hard to maintain: when I try to do it, my bottom lip keeps slipping back into its 'familiar' place. So how can I get it to stay there without having to worry about it all the time?"

The second part is why I posted some comments on mouthpiece pressure, and Brad is talking about "anchoring".

So, Brad, is that what you're asking, or is it something entirely different? I'll be curious to know: if it's something like this, then we're going through some similar stuff.

(In the overall picture, though, I'm all with what Doug just said. Duh, right?)
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul T. wrote:
Brad,

I just watched one of your "skeleton mouthpiece" videos, and you look like a IV (or a very low IIIB). In any case, you definitely "pull down to ascend", so you're not a IIIA.

But you also do some free buzzing in the clip, and that looks decidedly downstream. Can you free buzz "into" the horn, or is it possible that you free buzz downstream but play upstream?


Gentlemen,

if I'm remembering correctly from the Encyclopedia:

1.ALL free-buzzing is downstream- for ANY type. This is just the physics of free-buzzing.

2. Type IV's should avoid "walking in" to the mouthpiece. It's too confusing for the type IV embouchure to suddenly "switch gears" from downstream to upstream. I can "force" it to happen but it still feels unnatural.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Doc's attention to detail was unparalled, however, you really have to pay attention to the smallest details in his writings.

Sometimes the most important, salient point of a paragraph is in one short sentence.

Brad- you look like a IV to me.

p.s. A slight cupped section in the mpc seems to give me better control vs. a straight V shape. I'll post a couple jpegs later to show what I mean. I'm not sure if it's the extra volume (Very Slightly more) the cup shape provides, or the reflection (resistance). My sound is more alive with a slight cup...


mc
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses!

I'm fairly certain, after a lot of experimentation this summer, that I'm a Type Ia: Even bite, low placement, upstream, anchoring on the bottom.

I understand that the current thinking is to ignore types I and Ia, and treat them as other types. Could someone clarify this for me?

I'm feeling a sense of relief, done with confusion and type-switching. Things are working MUCH better. I've been getting by, all this time, by will power, practice and attention to technical issues, all the while trying to anchor on my upper lip.

I think that the confusion was due to my even bite; I seemed to be able to play the horn with a variety of approaches, occasionally finding it easy, but usually working too hard. Is this typical of people in this predicament?

Any suggestions for solidifying a bottom lip anchor?

Thanks in advance for your responses!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
I understand that the current thinking is to ignore types I and Ia, and treat them as other types. Could someone clarify this for me?

Well, that's not my current thinking. I believe that Doc included those in the Encyclopedia for a very specific reason, and that reason is that the people who fall into those types are a distinct and separate classification. You're sorta proving that to me.

bg wrote:
I think that the confusion was due to my even bite; I seemed to be able to play the horn with a variety of approaches, occasionally finding it easy, but usually working too hard. Is this typical of people in this predicament?

Any suggestions for solidifying a bottom lip anchor?

One thing about "keeping the weight on the lower lip" is that it prevents the dropping of the jaw for the lower register, especially when doing descending slurs. Doc told me many times that the key to successful brass playing is the correct execution of the descending slur.

One way to make sure you have all four legs intact is by using the Prologue of Five Cheek Puff Routines, but that's something that I wouldn't recommend taking on without the "supervision" of an experienced, Reinhardt-oriented instructor.

Chris LaBarbera also has a surefire way of "finding your legs" that has been discussed here in the past. He's always a good guy to talk to about regarding "finding your legs" (in my opinion).
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like Reinhardt based his Types on a combination of form and function. Functionally, all upstreams are close to being the same whether the jaw's resting position is overbite, even front teeth, or underbite, so I prefer to call them all "Low Placement."

On the other hand there are three clearly different downstream embouchures, which he confusingly called III, IIIA, and IIIB. Plus Type I which is functionally the same as IIIA.

I have extensive experience with only one player with totally even teeth. He went through hell trying to make anything work before I saw him, but I determined he needed to be a IIIA and that has been very successful with fairly regular checkups.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I remember reading that Reinhardt said Type Is often had trouble figuring what to do, and often needed to use a pretty extreme placement. Is that correct?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the case I mentioned, yes.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and a downstream type I could actually function as a IIIA or a IIIB, depending on his/her pivot? Or do all Type Is pivot in the same direction?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't refer to anybody as Type I at all. That guy is a IIIA, and that's the end of the story as far as I'm concerned. If somebody else functions best as a IIIB, that's what they are. I don't think there would be anybody with even teeth who would be a IIIB, but I suppose anything is possible.

Last edited by Doug Elliott on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Thanks, Doug.
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally stopped dragging my feet on this, and took a Skype lesson with Dave Sheetz this week.

First, let me just say that the experience was fantastic. Dave was so present and observant, and was instantly helpful.

After my first "official" Reinhardt lesson and analysis (I've been self-teaching from Reinhardt's material for many years) Dave did, in fact , type me as a Type Ia Upstream. He helped confirm things I'd been suspecting, and was able to clarify several approaches that have already made playing easier, after only three days!

What was even more impressive to me, especially as a teacher, was the follow-up email I received. The detailed analysis, (which my wife said reminded her of a prescription) showed so much attention to detail and care for the direction of the student. I'm really going have to ponder this, as it relates to my own teaching.

Thanks Dave!
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! A great review, thanks for sharing.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Dave Sheetz is the real deal. So are Rich and Chris.

Every person on this board would benefit from taking a lesson with any of them.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
I finally stopped dragging my feet on this, and took a Skype lesson with Dave Sheetz this week.

<snip>

I'm really going have to ponder this, as it relates to my own teaching.


It'd be great to get a follow-up report on your progress, Brad. We all know what an amazing player you already are . . . I'd love to hear how your lesson with Dave has impacted your already outstanding ability on trumpet.

Every time I left Doc's studio I had such optimism and always a brighter outlook once Doc had "found it" regarding my difficulties of the moment. The days and weeks following each revelation were always exciting and rewarding.

I'm hoping you might be able to give us some after-the-fact insights now that you've had some time to ponder. Thanks!
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rich,

I'm still experimenting and learning more before calling Dave for a follow-up lesson, but the first lesson served to clarify some questions I previously had, and to confirm some habits that I wasn't sure about, if that makes sense.

Because of my even bite, I've played as many different ways as you can imagine over the years. Sometimes, I'd happen on habits that made things work more easily, and not be able to hang on to them as I'd find my position drifting over time.

Dave cleared this up for me, and I believe that I'll be able to make more consistent progress now. After the lesson, I had a better understanding of tracking, and I am gaining more control over it daily. I'm now able to track up to the triple C area, pretty easily and smoothly. Although Dave suggested that my track moves downward and to the left, I've discovered that it might move more to the left THAN downward; maybe South by Southwest. I've been working on the pivot stabilizer and track routine every morning, and it gets easier and makes more sense every day.

I'm beginning to understand that part of what was working for me in my Skeleton Mouthpiece routine was simply working and establishing my track.
This also seems easier to execute now.

Regarding benefits to the playing itself; It's feeling more consistent and effortless, without question, already on the gigs. I'm especially noticing improved flexibility in my improvising.

bg
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a great follow-up post! As most of us are repeatedly learning, some of what we learn now doesn't make sense until later, and sometimes when we re-learn something we learn it for the first time.

Glad to hear about your progress and thanks for posting Brad!
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad,

I have a question for you:

You are, now confirmed by Dave, an upstream player, and you've said yourself that you have "very little upper lip in the mouthpiece".

But you also said that you can "walk in and out" of the horn and free buzz without trouble.

Do you know what's going on there? Are you able to buzz *and* play upstream, or something else?

I'm very curious! (Although I'm glad to see my guess of your tracking/embouchure motion/pivot was correct!)
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

I'm not sure what's "going on" with that; I do know that my type is fairly unusual... Even bite, upstream, low placement, horn at a downward angle.

Dave said it reminded him of Buddy Childers, FWIW....
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