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jarrelainen
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Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read an interesting article by A- Ghitalla about forming your embouchure, and one of the points were that when you say "mmm" , there should not be any red part of the lips visible!

So my question is, really no red??
and how do I achieve this, if it is like that?
I mean how can any sound escape out from that tight lips?

Another question that I have is the thing about loose corners, I have tried it but find it hard to get any sound out of the trumpet that way, since the middle part of the lips are closed when striving for loose corners, any hints about how to achieve this??

I can get a sound, a high squeak when moving the mpc to either a little left or right from the center of the lips.

Well, a lot of questions, but maybe someone could share some light??
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LFRoberts5
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Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 960
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a couple quotes from BE.

"With the lips so tightly compressed the pitch may be unstable. Some tinkering may be necessary to get the lips in the optimum position. The key is to be patient and keep doing the basic Lip Clamp/Blow Air process until you discover the small detail that unlocks the puzzle. General suggestions include moving the mouthpiece higher or lower, tilting the horn higher or lower, rolling in the lip, and touching the lips more closely together. Rolling in the lips is like creating a dam. At first, the air flows where it wants, leaking out of the weakest spot, usually the corners. Eventually, as you encourage the lips to focus more or less in the right direction, strength and coordination improves, as the air stream begins to form in the center and create a vibration."

Hope this helps.

Lloyd

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[ This Message was edited by: LFRoberts5 on 2003-11-18 18:14 ]
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Larrios
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 794
Location: Serooskerke (Walcheren), The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are asking about two things. The roll in and loose corners. Those two are intimately linked to eachother, please check out what Lex has posted, it is great:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=14237&forum=29&9

To learn how to play with a more closed lipposition and relaxed corners, you need a reference point to start with. In case of the roll in that would be the Lip Clamp. Really no red? In case of the clamp, yes. How do you achieve that? Rolling your lips inwards as far as you can. A mirror could help you check yourself. Sometimes you think you are all the way in, but when you see it, you can often go even further.

When you try to squeak, don't be too much concerned about the sound coming from the center of your lips or not. Keep your lips rolled in and try to keep your corners relaxed and just blow and see what happens. The same goes when you put your horn on your lips while blowing a hiss from the lip clamp position. At first it's likely that you'll get the hiss at the sides of your mouthpiece. No worries. Keep your lips in and corners relaxed and just repeat the clamp/hiss/setup process. Your lips feel your mouthpiece and as you do it over and over again, the squeezed air will automatically find its way to the mouthpiece. Unconciously. Just allow it to happen. Your lips do know what to do. If you try too much to get the air hiss through the center of your lips, you'll probably tighten your corners again, which opens up the center and yes, you got the air through the center, but you've stopped the process. Let the air and lips find eachother and with time, you'll find a way to get a sound in this closed setting.

Keep in mind here that playing with a more closed setting and loose corners is your goal in the end. Finding a pitch starting in the lip clamp position is your goal for now. One step at the time. If you relax the corners, that means you'll need strength elsewhere, which will be the lip. That's what you are developing, stronger lips. As you get stronger and more used to the roll in, you will automatically begin to be able to let go of your corners in your normal playing as well.

I hope this helps a bit.

Ko

PS: I forgot to add that also the roll out will help you in relaxing the corners. They work together for that matter.

[ This Message was edited by: Larrios on 2003-11-19 09:04 ]
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jarrelainen
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Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your help!

You are so right about it being easy to "cheat" and use your corners, and therefore end progression.
I'll try to do it right this time.

While trying to get a sound/squeak from the horn, should I try to avoid playing other stuff until I can get my embouchure right?

Thanks again, and take care!

/JK
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HJ
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 387
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Please play all the other stuff you want!!!!!!!!!!!!! The squeek, clamp and roll-in/out are merely exercises to eventually make your lips do the right things. This is the most powerfull part of BE. It is INDIRECT!!! I am a pro and I cannot afford to mess up my chops, or wait until a sound emerges from extremely closed lips. Nobody can play this way in the beginning. Eventually a sound will come in this position, but just keep playing the way you are used to. Trying to play on this embouchure will happen or not. I am doing BE for 1 1/2 year now. My roll-in exercises do not sound professional, haha, but, man I almost gained a whole octave just playing my old way while doing all the odd things. Your lips will incorporate the good stuff themselves as soon as they are ready.

BTW. Do you own a copy of the book? In the book are some pictures of how loose corners and lip clamp look. No red and loose corners. I have to say that the loose corners part also confused me. The corners in my opinion are not really loose, otherwise air would only come out through the corners. They have to be closed. IMO 'loose' corners support a much more forward movement of the lips, like you do in the roll-out section. Even in roll-out position the corners are not totally loose. They move forward and inward. In roll-in they still support the forward position of the lips more than keeping the air from leaking through.
When I started BE my corners really ached, and I thought, I must be doing something wrong here, but it is a totally different way of using the corner muscles (I am not a biologist, but I think there might be other muscles involved). Inward and forward instead of anchoring the embouchure and pulling the lips out of the mouthpiece. What you want is cushion, thus the ability to roll-in more, flexible corners (corners that can actually move more inward and forward if you play higher and relax when you play lower) and more lip in the mouthpiece.

Bert
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jarrelainen
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Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok!

The thought of thinking that the lips "know" what to do, seems to work for me, just keep on blowing until the tone emerges.

BTW when I did the clamp exercise earlier today, I got my first dubba-C!! This is the place where Homer would say "Wohooo"
It feels incredible for the moment!!

The cool thing was that it was really there!!! not just a squeak but a nice sounding double-C!
I have never managed to do that before, and it's so intensely cool!!!
I'm still waiting to wake up from this dream!

Just have to say that, all these advice do help, and gets results!!
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