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Modified embouchure or new embouchure?



 
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trumpetjunkie
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Joined: 07 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just stumbled across this today! Wow this is sweet! And hopefully it should take a little load off Jeff as to the incessent emails of questions and doubts and all that good stuff by having a community of players of the same method to question. Heh.

Anyways, here's the question;

Have you;

1. Done the exercises and had your embouchure enhanced?

2. Changed your embouchure to a complete BE style embouchure-leaving your old one behind?

Sounds like there's a few of both types, but I'm wondering which one you are, which produces better results, and, (however irrelevent it may be) which way is more common amoung BE-ers?
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LFRoberts5
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Joined: 12 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing the exercises everyday and it has enhanced my playing.

I have better endurance, a purer tone, better flexibility, better intonation, better accuracy, better articulation, I can play louder and softer with better ease. And I'm getting more gigs.
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has your embouchure gotten better or have you changed your embouchure?
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LFRoberts5
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My embouchure has gotten better by changing my embouchure. Not a complete change, but subtle little changes. I was already a student of SC and the BE just seemed to complete the picture.
As Jeff told me "what happens is one group starts using the Roll-In setting more and more in their regular playing. Another group will maintain their regular setting, but will increasingly feel the positive influence of the exercises. This group also makes lip position changes, but they are more subtle."
I am in the second group. But as of tonight, I am starting to go to the first group. What is great about BE is that you don't have to give up your "regular" embouchure. By doing the exercises, the correct way of playing indirectly, subconsciencely, almost effortlessly, creeps into your regular playing habits. That way you don't get stuck out in "no man's land.'
I hope this is not too confusing.
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Charlie Cheeseburger
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Joined: 03 Apr 2002
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloyd is absolutely right. There are two groups of students, one who will more or less change full-time to a more rolled-in setting, and others who will maintain more of their regular embouchure. Both groups will benefit hugely from BE, the only difference being that the physical changes that are happening won't be so obvious with the second group. The only thing I would add is that the two groups aren't strict categories: the distinction between the two is very fluid.

As for me, I suspect that I'm destined to remain in the second group, and that I'll never have a text-book Smiley embouchure! But I can live with that. The important thing is that things are moving in the right direction, and that if you give your lips half a chance, they'll work out what to do themselves.

Best regards,

Andrew Lynn
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HJ
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
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Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Interesting quetion. I want to know this, too, and I heard Jeffs answer. Here's my experience, since this is what is nice about the forum. You ask and players who do BE give you the answer straightaway. No guessing or uncertainty. I am in the second group for now. So, I benefit greatly from doing the exercises, but I do not look like the childeren on the cover of the book. Maybe a question for Jeff: are these kids doing the roll-in exercise, or is this how it looks as they play? The point is, if I play the roll-ins it looks like these pictures, but in my normal playing it does look differently.
Now about the two groups, the real BE face (whatever this is), and the balanced from the inside (because of course this is what it is, if you benefit from BE, you do not see it from the outside, but there must be a balance on the inside). I am very slowly going from one group to the other I think. On the Callet forum on TrumpetChops I described my experience of combining BE and Callets TCE, and slowly, this way of extreme tonguing gives me the BE 'rubber face'. Bunched up chin, rolled in lips. I play with a little pocket of air in my bottom lip now. Thios has changed over the last month or so, and maybe will change again some day, I don't care. Slowly I begin to feel the benefits of the first (BE-faced) group, or rather, it just happens to go this direction, I am not conciously doing it, but it just feels better this way.
More people join this tag, I want to know, too!

BTW, I have an eight year old beginner and I started him with BE. He does a nice lip clamp and is starting to make a tone out of the lip squeek. For the rest he had a big problem just playing a G second line in the staff. Then I told him to roll-in his lips a bit like in the lip clamp, and immediately he played with a good tone and...with a rubber face, chin up, lips rolled in, bit of air pocket here and there, and he managed to even play a bit higher, to about C, with a very natural sound and tonguing!!! I think he will be the first real BE face of my students, although I also have a girl (11 years) who just started, also Lip clamp etc. She is not very consistent in doing the BE exercises, she plays very naturally, but on a BE face, haha. Could it be that because I started her off with BE that her natural way of blowing the horn is towards BE? BTW, she plays for three months now, and plays easily to D2 and a bit further if she wants to. (She's the arrogant type )

Bert

[ This Message was edited by: HJ on 2003-11-25 05:19 ]
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert - regarding the kids on the book cover, it's how they look when they play. However, only about 30% of my students look like this (full-blown roll-in). The rest only exhibit it to varying degrees.

So why put them on the cover? The main reason was to provide a strong counter-balance to the flat chin bias, and the continuing fear about using anything other than a flat chin. Because of this bias, a typical band director will frequently attempt to "correct" the student who uses a rolled in embouchure, regardless of how well the student plays. This is insane! The kids with this type of setup almost always play easier and better than the other kids.

Jeff Smiley
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the stage of development I am in right now, I have two very different embouchures. It has been like this for only two weeks now, but it works great! When I do BE, my horn angle is almost horizontal, even tending to slightly point upwards. When I am playing some music, my horn angle is clearly downwards. With my current 'BE-setting' I am starting to get more control of the focus in my sound. In the middle register I can make things sound edgy. However, I am not yet strong enough to play music in this setting. Without problems I can shift back to my more 'practical-used' setting.
The thing that I realised a while ago, is that these different angles are not caused by putting the jaw forward or something like that. I experimented with that in the past and that didn't get me anywhere. The angles are different only because of how I use the lips! In my case, at this stage, when I do BE, my top lip is rolled in, but my bottom lip is rolled out and points forwards quite a bit. (I can only observe that when I put away the mouthpiece from my lips. While playing it is less visible on the outside. I was surprised of how it looked when I first saw it in the mirror!) My corners are more relaxed and mouthpiece position is higher than in my practical setting.
I could give you even more details, but I have to stop rambling and get to a point that I wanted to make. It doesn't matter at all how it looks on the outside. The interesting part of an embouchure is where we can't see it: inside the mouthpiece. Also, if you feel more at ease with two seperate settings in your particular stage of development, that's natural, and if you feel at ease with just one and adding the BE right away, that's just as natural. Go for what works for you in your specific situation. Both 'groups' will end up playing more efficiently in the end, so either way, you'll get to your goal, whatever that might be.
I teach an 11 year old girl, for one year now, and she looks much like a frog when she plays. Huge puffed cheeks! If one of my conservatory teachers would see that, he would probably suffer from a heartattack! (He is a flat chin player/teacher.) However, she plays, which is most important. Looks are likely to change in your development anyway.
Another thing I wanted to add is little tip. I find it extremely helpful to practise some of the BE excersises with my eyes closed, so that my ear can be my guide. And if you want to look in that mirror, do so after you've found a great big sound. You might be in for a surprise! (This is something that I learned from my other student, by the way, although he is not yet aware of that himself, hehe.)

Ko
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if you were a number 1 (modified embouchure) could you train yourself to be a number 2 (BE roll-in embouchure) effectively?
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HJ
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would you want that? It either happens or it doesn't . If it sounds good, and plays well, your endurance is good and range OK, who cares what it looks like? Little by little I am going to the BE-face side, but sometimes I do what Ko suggest, I close my eyes, and play, and look in the mirror, and find myself playing with a bit of a flat chin. That is where I come from, what I studied for years, so it is hard to discard, but I don't mind anymore. I feel a 'relative state of balance' or an 'inner balance' that I did not feel before I started the BE process.

Bert
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because when I go completely BE I can play about an octave higher than when I am in a "relative state of balance"
A logical enough reason I believe.
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't play quite with the grumpy old man face clamp..and have developed my own hybrid...perhaps ever so slightly puckered..as I move my
lips/ muscles towards the mpc...I think. I wonder how close to "correct as instructed" I really am.

Fortunately, there is a subconscious apsect to these exercises and they are designed to get me in the most efficient setting..eventually. I put faith in that and just do em.
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Charlie Cheeseburger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think only time will tell for each player whether or not he or she can or will make the change to a full-blown Smiley embouchure. It can depend on a number of factors, from an individual's physical make-up, to the practicalities of a dramatic embouchure change while still having to rehearse and perform on a regular basis. If a more dramatic change can work for you, then go for it; if an indirect change works better for your own set of circumstances, that's fine as well.

trumpetjunkie--if you can play an octave higher using a full-blown Smiley embouchure, and the other aspects of your playing are not compromised, then of course you should use the Smiley set-up, for the simple reason that it's more efficient. But if the short term results are not satisfactory for rehearsal and performance purposes, then maintain your regular embouchure for the moment while striving for the Smiley (or something approximating it) in the long term.

The beauty of the BE system is that it can be adapted to suit any player's requirements, and that progress will always be made if the excercises are practiced in the prescribed manner.

Andrew Lynn
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can go much higher, but articulation and accuracy go down the drain. Hopefully if I persist I can learn to do this proficiently.
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