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Benge gap



 
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campbrd
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Benge gap Reply with quote

As I understand it, the receiver couples the mouthpiece to the leadpipe and the gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the beginning of the leadpipe. The beginning of the leadpipe is clearly visible on my 1971 Bach Strad and is approximately the width of the wall of the mouthpiece shank and the gap is easily measured. I cannot determine where the beginning of the leadpipe is on my 1982 Benge 3X MLP. It is not visible and I cannot feel where it is by probing with a paper clip. How can there be a gap here? Since others have mentioned adjusting the gap on their Benges, there must be. Another, older Benge 3X I checked is just like mine. Can any of you Benge owners confirm this?
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge horns are known for having little to no "ledge" at the butt of the leadpipe. This is partly what gives them their characteristic loose slotting.

The ideal gap for a Benge pipe is 1/4", which is double that of a "normal" horn. You shouldn't worry about getting your gap adjusted, because unless the receiver is noticeably worn, the gap should be somewhere in the ballpark of 1/4".
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ideal gap will change from player to player and mouthpiece to mouthpiece. The ideal gap on any given horn is the one that gives the player the greatest ease of playing and the best intonation possible. I will ask a friend of mine who is a Bange owner and understands gap to chime in on this tomorrow.
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markchuvala
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is NO right or wrong answer.

Correct gap has many variables, cup shape, depth, to blow, backbore, to the way mother nature dictates the way you play.

I play a Benge 2X+ currently and I use a Stomvi 4.5 and sometimes 5 sleeve/coupler. But others have played my mouthpiece and horn and use radically different couplers with success.

If your piece is cut for sleeves...get a few different ones and experiment. It's AMAZING what a difference you can get with a thousandths of an inch change.

Gap is important, and size does matter.

Agreed..it is supposed to be fun!

-Mark
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Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Richard, great to see you post.

Mark is exactly right.

I am trying to figure out my ideal gap on my 3MLP as well. Mines a little older (1970)and just had the leadpipe replaced by Byron Autrey. Mouthpieces have different overall lengths and also different girths which affect how deep the end of the shank goes when seated in the receiver.

Trent Austin has just reverse engineered my favorite Curry mpc and made it a 2 piece. He cut the backbore for sleeves and has shipped a selection of sleeves so I can figure out what works best, then I will return the rest.

I visited his shop for an entire afternoon in December and had dinner with him. I made my decision to trust this project to him based on this visit. He understands the deal and is competent to guide me. That's just my opinion.

Good luck and take care!
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Snell of Bob Reeves Brass references two very good articles in his post in this thread


http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=127493&highlight=
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part.
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qcm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part.


If you need a Benge replacement part, you should contact Kanstul.

They still have the original Benge tooling.

-Dave
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Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Byron Autrey also has many original Benge parts and tooling as well - he's in southern Michigan and was Elden's first shop tech and salesperson.

He did the leadpipe, tuning slide and valves on mine. Pretty incredible work. I'm sure Zig would have done same.
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JohnSnell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Reeves has a great story from his time at Benge that may give some insight into why the gap is usually so large on a Benge trumpet:

Quote:
When I was working for Benge, Elden was working on the receiver placement on his trumpets. He had the guys in the shop set up a Bb with the receiver tight but not soldered so it could be adjusted.

Elden would play something then back the receiver out a bit increasing the gap. He kept pulling the receiver out and increasing the gap until it played good for him then had the guys solder it in place.

He was going to play test using a prototype Benge mouthpiece, but they had one of the polishers put in the backbore and he broke the backbore tool. Instead, Elden pulled out his own Bach mouthpiece. Who knows how old that thing was. Even though he was retired from playing, Benge was a very strong player. The combination of his strength and his old Bach mouthpiece may be the reason why the Benges have a larger gap than normal.

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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qcm wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part.


If you need a Benge replacement part, you should contact Kanstul.

They still have the original Benge tooling.

-Dave


Thanks Dave, I'll keep that in mind. Conn-Selmer is ending the Benge brand anyway, many parts are discontinued.
-Lionel
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reeves Reply with quote

Bob tells the story. I've heard it a number of times over the years from different people. What you think is a great Benge is often decided, or answered for, at the receiver/ leadpipe.
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campbrd
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the comments guys. I don't know if I have a discerning enough ear or chops to be able to detect changes in gap but it is an interesting subject to me. If I can ever part with it for any length of time, I think I will send it to Kanstul.

Richard
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so you fellows got me going on this Benge gaposis question. I got out both horns and my cigar box of Benge parts and did some quick measuring:

Benge 3X+, (ca. 1974) 1/8" (old and stretched)
Benge 3x, (ca 1967) 3/16" (replaced receiver)
Original assembly for the old 3X, 5/16"
2 NOS Benge D leadpipe assemblies, 3/16" and 1/4"
2 NOS " Bb " " , 3/16" and 1/4"

So there you have it, it seems to partially depend on how the receiver was drawn as to whether it was 3/16" or a quarter inch, as there wasn't any depth difference on the NOS pipes between the end of the receiver and the beginning of the leadpipe.
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