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Trouble with loose corners



 
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jackz9999
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Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been working on the preliminary rolled in exercises such as the lip clamp/blow air. I have trouble keeping my corners from firming up and "hugging my teeth." When I play on my trumpet, I can manage to lose this tension on the lower notes. When I try to play higher, my old habit comes back.

What are your personal experiences on this?

Should I just practice rolling in with firm corners and let it naturally disappear, or is there a better way?

Also, when you blow air through your lip clamp, are you lips wet?

Thanks


Jack






[ This Message was edited by: jackz9999 on 2003-12-09 21:56 ]
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it easiest to do the lip clamp squeak with the lips wet. As you get more experience it becomes less important.

Keep working on the roll-in and roll-out and don't worry too much about the corners. As you get into roll-out 3 and 4 the required integration of the two becomes more apparent.

I usually do the roll outs first then go to roll-in. That seems to loosen things up. There's still a lot of tension in my roll-in after only two weeks, BUT I can feel in loosening some now.

Dave
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also try the trick Jeff advocates in his book. Put your finger over the middle of your mouth (like you're gonna say "Shhh") and then blow to "unlock" the corners. It's better explained in the book. Check it out.
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oj
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Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One trick I've found is to go from a complete roll-out to a roll-in in front of a mirror.

You can also "hiss air" in the roll-out position and keep "hissing" while gently rolling in. If you get air pockets, ok! By doing this you should find a good positon for roll-in. When you have established this roll-in, you can clamp the lips.

As we all easily can experience, a roll-in with a big smile is easy to do. So, watch that the corners have almost the same position all the time (the "fish-mouth" position).

Ole
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Larrios
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
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Location: Middelburg, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

First to Ole: Bert mentioned this somewhere as well. I'm not able to roll out and keep my corners in place while rolling in. Not yet, at least. You called it a trick, which is right, in my opinion. I just wanted to share that for me, at this point, it's not possible yet.

Now to the topic of this thread. I think you might want to spend a bit of attention to your inhaling. Try this: set up the trumpet on your lips, as usual, and breath in through your corners, while making sure the lips are still gently touching in the center, inside the mouthpiece. (Drop your tongue to make it easier to take a full breath.) You can try this for example with the tongue on lips excersises. If you come from a flat chin/locked corner way of playing, like me, it's possible that you got accustomed to inhaling through the center, because your focus used to be on tightening the corners. It's impossible to breath in through the corners, again, with the lips touching in the center, if the corners stay locked, so you'll have to unlock them. Then after inhaling, strike the lip and attack. Don't worry where your corners go. Just try to 'remember' the loose feeling during your inhalation.

Perhaps for most of the people out there this is a very obvious thing to do, but for me, regarding trumpet, nothing seemed obvious, so I thought I should put it here. Hope it can be helpful.

Ko
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oj
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ko,

Good point. You can also "reverse" it. From the roll-in, hiss air (with center compression):

Place the mouthpice and play. When stopping the sound, keep the lips together in the center, let air out through the corners. Now you should get the "loose corner" feeling.

You can do the whole Roll-In #1 like this,
* intake (nosebreathing),
* let out some air through corners (the "loose corner" check),
* play the whole note (G or high C),
repeat,
* intake of air (nose breathing),
* etc. etc.

Ko, are you sure you cannot make a fish mouth and roll in from there without too much strech of the corners?
Strange?
I can do it now (in front of my PC) without a mirror. I just "measure" the distance between the corners with my fingers when I form the roll-out (fish mouth / kiss), then keep the thumb and index finger at the corners and roll in. Just a very small movement in my corners. (I feel air pockets will help in this test)

Btw, I think this rolled in position, I'm talking about here, is exagggerated. Too much "pucker", to use that word. But as a help tool, I think it can be used. Kind of a Roll-Out #4 without instrument


Ole
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Larrios
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
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Location: Middelburg, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ole,

Yes, I'm pretty sure. If I do it, my corners stretch somewhat and, as you said, I end up with too much pucker to be playable. I think the shape of the lips and teeth formation play a role here. My lip clamp position is rather wide, a bit like the picture above on page 85. It takes quite some movement to move to the fully rolled out position. Most other pictures on that page look more forward, so I guess that for them the movement from end to end is smaller. Maybe, as I'll get stronger, the whole package becomes more compact and forward. Maybe I will just keep a little more movement than average. Surely time will tell.

Ko
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jackz9999
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Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. What does the "hiss" sound like? I have not produced anything so far that I would believe to be a hiss, so some descriptions would be helpful. Thanks

Jack
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oj
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack,

This is a text medium (this forum) with all the limitation that gives, like the difficulty in trying to explain a sound.

A "hiss" is a onomatopoeic word. In other words, there is a connection between how we say "hiss" and how it sounds when we make a "hiss". The same with the word "buzz". If you wanted to tell how a fly on a window pane sounded, you would perhaps end up with "bzzz"-like word.

To me, a hiss has more air in the sound than a buzz.

Btw, a "Farkas" (with tight corners) lips buzz sound has a more distinct pitch than a "Callet" spit-buzz.

Jack, form the lips like a fish (very rolled out), blow air though the tiny whole (also called the aperture) in the center of the lips. Did it sound like a "hiss" or like "buzz"?

If you roll in an blow air you can get a "hiss", a "sqeek" or a "buzz" - it all depends on the balance between expel of air and the resistance in the lips. Little resistance = hiss, more resistance = sqeek, even more = buzz

Ole
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