• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

King Silver Flair serial number clarification....


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DivineWind
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 269
Location: MA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: King Silver Flair serial number clarification.... Reply with quote

Rather than assume, let me ask, of those who know:



I note that some Silver Flair horns, presumably the earlier ones, have two digits, then a space, then six digits, running vertically on the valve body....such as ' 41 ____ 371xxx ' , and others have a higher, single number, running horizontally across the valve body.

Am I correct in assuming that those first two digits are not part of the actual/searchable serial no., and that only those later six digits are the actual serial no.??

Thanks much!
_________________
"A trumpet is like a woman. If you lose one, just wait patiently and eventually a good one will come your way. And the older ones are a little better if you wait patiently, and a lot less expensive."

- Forrest Buchtel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eagle362
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 332
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DW:
This is NOT one of the older horns. The original Silver Flairs had a three digit sn# only, no prefix.
Your horn is of the UMI period, made some time after 82-84 or so.
Yours will have two braces between the tuning slide parts, top to bottom where the earlier Pre-umi had one.
Yours also would have knurled valve caps where the vintage has smooth rounded ones.
Sorry to say that the post UMI is generally considered to not be of the quality of the older ones.
I personally have never player the UMI version like your, just repeating what the general opinion is.
I owned one of the old ones for many years and know this particular horn well, the newer ones are exceedingly easy to differentiate from the "vintage" ones.
The sn range on the old ones goes from the high 200,000 range to a low 500,000, and NEVER had a prefix.
Best of luck to you!
Mark
_________________
Harrelson SUMMIT 4/7
Eclipse MS / Callet SC3s
Eclipse Equinox
Kanstul 1530 / Wick 4.5, 5B, and Sparx (GR) 4B soloist
Eclipse Flug / Trent Austin M5 mpc
reynolds Contempora
Conn 80A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
eagle362
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 332
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I wrote 3 digit sn. I meant to say 6 digit sn. and again, never a perfix.
Mark
_________________
Harrelson SUMMIT 4/7
Eclipse MS / Callet SC3s
Eclipse Equinox
Kanstul 1530 / Wick 4.5, 5B, and Sparx (GR) 4B soloist
Eclipse Flug / Trent Austin M5 mpc
reynolds Contempora
Conn 80A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Brian Moon
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 2785
Location: Detroit

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen old Silver Flairs with s/n as high as almost 800,000. The last ones were made in the late 70s.
_________________
Either is fine. My chops always feel great

ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pablopiccasso
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2014
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject: Value Reply with quote

So how much is a good condition vintage silver flair king trumpet going for these days?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaveH
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2001
Posts: 3861

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prices vary...look on eBay...usually there are a couple at any given time. Condition and the specific instrument in question will be important in determining price.

I have a vintage Silver Flair - the second one I have owned - which was made in the late 1969/early 1970 time period and have no intention to sell it...I had another one from early 1966 and foolishly sold it...the lesson learned was never sell a horn.

Any horn with the name Silver Flair with any numerical prefix before the 6 digit serial number is a newer horn, and is not the original design and manufacture when originally the H.N. White company, and then King Musical Instruments made the horn. The original Silver Flair came out in 1964 and was essentially the same design and specifications until it was discontinued in the late 1970s.

Early Silver Flairs are designated as model 1055T - the T meaning trigger. Later horns made since the mid 1980s are designated as model 2055. Any horn designated as 2055 is not an original "vintage" Silver Flair. All vintage Silver Flairs were .462 bore size. All had 6 digit serial numbers - no prefix. The early Silver Flairs - from inception in 1964 until about 1971 or so, including the two I have owned, have a single tuning slide brace on the main slide, ALL had a first valve trigger, no bell inscription whatsoever, a third valve adjustable slide ring, and simply the word "Flair" inscribed in script on the side of the mouthpiece receiver. They will say either H.N. White Company or King Musical Instruments on the side of the second valve casing. The only difference I have seen in instruments from later on in the 1970s, until King discontinued the horn about 1979-1980, was the change in the mouthpiece receiver inscription to read "Silver Flair" and a small crown next to the words. Any instrument made after the end of the 1970s decade (the Silver Flair went out of production from about 1980 till about 1985 when UMI, the holding company that bought out King Musical Instruments about 1985, reintroduced the name on the 2055 model) and having the name Silver Flair would be a "newer" and different instrument, designated as a 2055 model.

The 1055 and 2055 are not the same horn, so beware when looking at these instruments as to what you are looking at. Different horns.

Serial number lists are estimates at best. It does not seem that reliable records exist for production that long ago by companies which no longer exist.


Last edited by DaveH on Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaveH
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2001
Posts: 3861

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were looking for a vintage Silver Flair, I think I would look at serial numbers in the 400, 000 range. The earliest ones made by H.N. White would most likely be in the low end of those numbers and the ones in the middle or upper 400, 000 series would probably be from the late 1960s - early 1970s.

That is the range I would look for in terms of serial numbers. I think those are ones that are most sought after.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Lockman
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Silver Flair Reply with quote

My 1968-69 Flair is 434317. If this helps.
_________________
All Bach Strad
AFM 60-471
Phi Mu Alpha
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
googanelli
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Florence,KY

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two periods of silver flairs.

The first in under H.N.White These were made from the 1960's through around 1980. They started being made in the early 60's in Cleveland and then the Whites built a new factory in Eastlake,OH in around 1965. The company was bought by Seeburg and merged into their company. Serial numbers were up to about to 999,999 and then they started using the 100,000 up to 159,464 again as far as I can tell. The model was the 1055t.

In 1985, they were merged into United Musical Instruments. They stayed in the same factory in Eastlake with the same workers. This was from around 1985-1986. They changed the model to the 2055t. After 86' they got the UMI numbering system.

From 1987-about 1995, they had a two digit number code before the serial number. A horn built in 1987 would be 37 XXXXXXX. The 37 + 50 would give you the year. A serial with 41 then XXXXXX would be made in 1991.

In 1995, they changed their serial numbers again starting with S. This went until about 2000.

After 2000, they went back to no prefix as far as I can tell.

All the silver flairs except for a few were made in the same plant. They were made with the same workers. They changed a few things with the newer model around 1985. That's about all the information I was able to gather.

Joe
_________________
I play the same chords over and over.....from a train.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1397

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

googanelli wrote:
There are two periods of silver flairs.


And two completely different horns. The 1055T made by H. N. White, and King Musical Instruments, is a completely different horn than the 2055t made by UMI. Some model name, different model horn. My 1055t was made about 1979 by King Musical Instruments, and the serial number is 727xxx.

My favorite way to tell one from another is that the pre-UMI 1055t horns have smooth top and bottom valve caps, with no knurling (sometimes it's a pain in the valve to get them off). The newer UMI 2055t horns have knurled valve caps.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JazzFluegel
Regular Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

googanelli wrote:
There are two periods of silver flairs.

...

In 1985, they were merged into United Musical Instruments. They stayed in the same factory in Eastlake with the same workers. This was from around 1985-1986. They changed the model to the 2055t. After 86' they got the UMI numbering system.
...

Joe


So y'all would agree that a 2055T with a serial no. 265,xxx is a UMI circa late 1980's? As of yesterday, I am brokering one for a widowed friend which appears to be NICase and will list it on TH asap. They seem to be ~$700-750 on-line?
Thanks.
_________________
Been here before...
CDs BIG SWING, runnerduck.com/tempos_cd.htm
JAZZ WORSHIP, cdbaby.com
NOW, Keith Allen Pintar
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt Cornet
Kanstul 1525 FL
1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2152

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
My favorite way to tell one from another is that the pre-UMI 1055t horns have smooth top and bottom valve caps, with no knurling (sometimes it's a pain in the valve to get them off). The newer UMI 2055t horns have knurled valve caps.

Looking at photos of 2055T's another is that the earlier horns like mine don't have any inscribing on the bell - the name only appears on the mp receiver. The 2055T's have "Silver Flair" written on the side up near the bell.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chef8489
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 539
Location: Asheville nc

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you get me pics of the born and I would to help if I can.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google HN White website and all the original HN White King info and more. Have fun, every King lover should know about this
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1397

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
mm55 wrote:
My favorite way to tell one from another is that the pre-UMI 1055t horns have smooth top and bottom valve caps, with no knurling (sometimes it's a pain in the valve to get them off). The newer UMI 2055t horns have knurled valve caps.

Looking at photos of 2055T's another is that the earlier horns like mine don't have any inscribing on the bell - the name only appears on the mp receiver. The 2055T's have "Silver Flair" written on the side up near the bell.


My late 1970's 1055t from King Musical Instruments has "Silver Flair" engraved on the side of the bell. But it's definitely a 1055t, not a 2055t from UMI.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I've owned 3 silver Flairs and played many others. My opinion is that the 64-69 horns are noticeably better than the King Eastlake 1055ts and much much better than the UMI horns. Not all king craftsmen moved from the Cleveland factory to the Eastlake factory also some labor issues. Not to say later models can't play as well but on average they don't command the $ that the HN white horns get. These will say HN white on valve casing. If not it isn't the original.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2544

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that a lot of kids got a Silver Flair, hardly played it and then quit, so there are frequently Silver Flairs available on ebay in perfect/like new condition. I got a King Instruments Company Silver Flair (the same design as the original H.N White design - King bought out H.N. White) in like new condition for $750.00. It's a decent playing horn. I also have a UMI "Dizzy" model Silver Flair (up-turned bell) and it's a decent playing horn, too (and the up-turned bell is a lot of fun - you get more attention on the bandstand than Bozo driving the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile).
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The horns labeled HN white are the originals and we're not student horns, as expensive as a Bach or Selmer in 67 when I bought mine. King didn't buy HN white white was king and the 1970 move was under original ownership minus HN who died, his wife Edna ran Eastlake till the family sold. If you find a pristine original flair for 700$, buy it immediately and I'll give you a hundred dollar instant profit. The originals in pristine shape go for 1400 and up. I'll take as many original pristine horns as you can find for 800$.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aTrumpetdude
Regular Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2016
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a pristine HN White Cleveland stamped Flair. It is a killer horn and and I would certainly not sell it for $800... $1200 maybe, $1400 sold
_________________
Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTrumpetdude wrote:
I have a pristine HN White Cleveland stamped Flair. It is a killer horn and and I would certainly not sell it for $800... $1200 maybe, $1400 sold

Totally agree great horn that stands straight up against many of today's. I think it would take 1400$ for me but I've owned it since 67. Best valves I've ever seen and I have Getzen - Bauerfind valve blocks on other horns. Sat in a case for 40 years and as fast as ever - never had a valve stick and they still pop like new. Great quality!
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group