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Initial attack



 
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JohnO
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Joined: 27 Aug 2014
Posts: 24
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Initial attack Reply with quote

I'm a 2 year comeback student. One of my goals was to have a usable range up to F or G above high C. So off I went with things like CG, Cat Anderson whisper G's, Meregillano hermetic seal and pucker, Reinhardt lower lip in, pencils in the the chops, etc. Ended up with a quivering embouchure possibly due to trying to micromanage my musculature - exactly opposite of what Caruso would have advised. So I have started Caruso's program and things are settling down nicely - feel better even after a couple of weeks (also thanks to the terrific getting started stickys).
The problem is this. Along the way I developed an occasional stutter on the initial attack. (This is on non-calisthenics material.) I articulate w a light mod K tongue. My sequence is to place the mp gently on lips, inhale 1 sec thru mouth, 1 sec thru nose, and blow. What should a Caruso student do with the lips during the inhale? (Eg breathe thru mid mouth then close lips, or corners of mouth with center lips touching then close lips, keep lips closed the whole time and nose breathe like on the calisthenics, etc.). I'd really like something to hang my hat on. Thank you.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Initial attack Reply with quote

JohnO wrote:
What should a Caruso student do with the lips during the inhale? (Eg breathe thru mid mouth then close lips, or corners of mouth with center lips touching then close lips, keep lips closed the whole time and nose breathe like on the calisthenics, etc.).

Probably none of the above. Don't think about what to do with your lips. Put them in the mouthpiece and blow. Do the calisthenics and allow the muscles to find their way.

I remember CC always referring to the initial attack (and all that followed) as a timing issue, but especially the initial attack. One very popular approach in music for resolving this (that works) is the uninterrupted inhale followed by the exhale. The inhale/exhale becomes the timing device. Breathe in for a certain amount of time (one beat, half a beat, 2 beats, whatever) and, without holding the air, continue right to the blow on the down beat.

A slight up and down movement of the bell on the "and" just before the downbeat is another timing device that also works for many.

When practicing Caruso you should use foot tapping and subdivision as your timing device. One-ee-and-ah, 2-ee-and-ah, 3-ee-and-ah, 4-ee-and-ah, BLOW! If you splatter the attack on the BLOW don't worry about it. Really. Just make sure it is in time.
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poprishchin
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my own practice and teaching I've found that a number of issues can result in hesitations/stutters with the initial attack. I actually developed an iOS app to help practice a good "delivery" - it's based on an exercise my old teacher (Roy Poper) used to assign to students.

The idea is to breath in time, with your chops set independent of the note on which you are supposed to enter (so as not to be too tight/loose). In order to encourage that, the pitch you're supposed to play isn't displayed until you've already begun your breath!

It was devised with "Stamp" principals in mind, but can be executed in any way that best fits your ideal delivery method.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/popers-game/id533678668?mt=8
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Initial attack Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
JohnO wrote:
What should a Caruso student do with the lips during the inhale? (Eg breathe thru mid mouth then close lips, or corners of mouth with center lips touching then close lips, keep lips closed the whole time and nose breathe like on the calisthenics, etc.).

Probably none of the above. Don't think about what to do with your lips. Put them in the mouthpiece and blow. Do the calisthenics and allow the muscles to find their way.

I remember CC always referring to the initial attack (and all that followed) as a timing issue, but especially the initial attack. One very popular approach in music for resolving this (that works) is the uninterrupted inhale followed by the exhale. The inhale/exhale becomes the timing device. Breathe in for a certain amount of time (one beat, half a beat, 2 beats, whatever) and, without holding the air, continue right to the blow on the down beat.

A slight up and down movement of the bell on the "and" just before the downbeat is another timing device that also works for many.

When practicing Caruso you should use foot tapping and subdivision as your timing device. One-ee-and-ah, 2-ee-and-ah, 3-ee-and-ah, 4-ee-and-ah, BLOW! If you splatter the attack on the BLOW don't worry about it. Really. Just make sure it is in time.


"Attack on the rebound of the breath." David E Kennedy (RIP)
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PH
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caruso would have had very little if anything to say about how you breathe and attack the first note. He said that whatever pedagogical method you subscribe to is the one you should use. However, as an earlier poster said, it is an issue of timing and rhythm.

A few points...

Mentally subdivide the beat before every entrance or initial attack.

Breathe in rhythm and tempo.

The sound and the silence between the sounds should all be conceived rhythmically.

Do not hesitate between Inhalation and the blow. The breath should be like a pendulum, not hesitating before changing direction.
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JohnO
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Joined: 27 Aug 2014
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Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Initial attack Reply with quote

Many thanks for the above advice. I'm fine with the breath attacks as the Caruso method demands, and am following the 4 rules. The getting started stickys provide great advice. My post only was regarding non-Caruso material.

My embouchure safari left me with the stutter/hitch. I don't subscribe to a particular pedagogical method; perhaps that's the problem w a safari - too many choices. Let me phrase the question this way: however I decide to draw the air in whether thru the middle or from the sides of the mouth, should the lips be in a comfortably closed position just prior to the blow? And any advice regarding tongue position in this sequence would be appreciated. Btw, I am applying the Caruso 4 second timed exhale/inhalation to this and it is def helping. The tapping foot helps keep the mind from getting too focused on the embouchure.

Also, any rec's on a Caruso teacher and/or someone wonderful at trumpet mechanics in the Milwaukee, WI area would be appreciated.

Thank you again. John
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're still over-analyzing. Whatever approach you use to your breathe-blow mechanic, playing the Caruso exercises will synchronize the timing thus making your attacks more accurate. Having said that, Carmine would want the lips together in a relaxed manner just before the air strikes them. Setting for the note you're about to play or too much thinking about what your lips are doing can cause inappropriate tension that will be counterproductive.

When I have students who are challenged by this, I give them a four-step process: set the lips together (relaxed), place the mouthpiece, breathe, and blow without hesitation.

Alan
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nvidal
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Joined: 12 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
Caruso would have had very little if anything to say about how you breathe and attack the first note. He said that whatever pedagogical method you subscribe to is the one you should use. However, as an earlier poster said, it is an issue of timing and rhythm.

A few points...

Mentally subdivide the beat before every entrance or initial attack.

Breathe in rhythm and tempo.

The sound and the silence between the sounds should all be conceived rhythmically.

Do not hesitate between Inhalation and the blow. The breath should be like a pendulum, not hesitating before changing direction.


Was the primary purpose of this to try to get the participant/student to tap into the subconcious mind by distracting the concious mind having it to focus on the time and breath?

Sort of like looking at the seems of the tennis ball ala inner game of tennis?
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gstump
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nvidal wrote:
PH wrote:
Caruso would have had very little if anything to say about how you breathe and attack the first note. He said that whatever pedagogical method you subscribe to is the one you should use. However, as an earlier poster said, it is an issue of timing and rhythm.

A few points...

Mentally subdivide the beat before every entrance or initial attack.

Breathe in rhythm and tempo.

The sound and the silence between the sounds should all be conceived rhythmically.

Do not hesitate between Inhalation and the blow. The breath should be like a pendulum, not hesitating before changing direction.


Was the primary purpose of this to try to get the participant/student to tap into the subconscious mind by distracting the conscious mind having it to focus on the time and breath?

Sort of like looking at the seems of the tennis ball ala inner game of tennis?


No, the purpose is to send signals to the muscles in a very organized and consistent way. This is how the muscles learn to respond when asked. Non-rhythmic random signals make things to so much more confusing.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:

Do not hesitate between Inhalation and the blow. The breath should be like a pendulum, not hesitating before changing direction.

Is this CC or PH?
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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Location: New Albany, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
PH wrote:

Do not hesitate between Inhalation and the blow. The breath should be like a pendulum, not hesitating before changing direction.

Is this CC or PH?


Direct CC quote.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
Direct CC quote.

Is quote from Musical Calisthenics For Brass?
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
PH wrote:
Direct CC quote.

Is quote from Musical Calisthenics For Brass?


From a lesson.
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Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
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JohnO
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Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Initial attack Reply with quote

Thank you again for the above replies. Again, with CC material I have no problem with nose breathing and breath attacks. My issue is only with non-CC material. I think my tongue can be a bit of a brick on the initial attack and can't get out of its own way sometimes. Things are improving I'm glad to say. Over-analyze? Guilty!
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