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Brass Parent - Pedal Tone Question



 
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AZTBNDAD
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Brass Parent - Pedal Tone Question Reply with quote

So, I'm a brass parent ... former and now every-once-in-a-while player of trumpet and trombone ...

I have one son majoring in Bass Trombone Performance, another is a casual player in High School.

The HS marching band has been developing a problem with lack of range. None of trumpets can sustain any note above the staff for more than a few seconds without wavering or fading. Endurance is also an issue. The rest of the brass section has similar problems with range and endurance.

This affliction carries over to concert and jazz groups.

I suspect that the issue is the hardware requirements and warmup routine driven by the Brass Tech for the marching band.

All of the brass players are given the same mouthpiece, trumpets get a Bach 5C and low brass (Baritones) get a Bach 6 1/2AL.

The warmup consists of some lip slurs, divergent/convergent chord progressions and ends with a long series of pedal tone exercises played at various dynamic levels and articulations. There has been no instruction given on exactly how to execute these notes, it's "each to his own devices".

I have never encountered this concept in any of my own trumpet work, and my older son and his instructors do not use anything like this. The older one opted out of Marching Band the last two years because of this particular Brass Tech.

What is the purpose of this exercise? Is this recommended for trumpets?

Thanks!

Brian
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedals done wrong definitely can be counterproductive. If your kids are compelled to play them make sure they have a guidance of a pro teacher to help them avoid getting hurt.

AFWIW making all trumpets play the same 5C is just hideous.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds totally messed up to me.

Do they all have to wear the same size shoe?

Pedal tones are advocated by some, strongly discouraged by others, but even proponents will say they must be carefully taught and monitored. I do not think I've ever heard of anyone expecting to play high ending their warm-up with pedal tones.

Does this brass tech play trumpet?

Perhaps a suggestion to bring in a pro teacher for a brass masterclass would help? Different perspective...
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Band parent Reply with quote

Hello all,
I may be stepping on toes here, but Here is my opinion...Coming from a point of view were few parents have the knowledge to know what it takes to support young musicians, having all kids play a 5C or 6.5 AL, is more about getting all the kids to have quality equipment, not just about "shoe" size. I saw a lot of no-name or obsolete, small size mouthpieces come into my band room over the years. Also, If they all can't have Yamaha 2335's or Getzen 300's, this is the next best option. 5C's could have been 3C's, Schilke 13 or 14's..
Pedal tones...whether you like them or not, does get you to listen. They also get you to gain a few more motor skills in your face. Sure you need a little direction, but I don't think a couple of minutes on pedal tones is going to result in the said performance.I think that is more a result of over-playing and pushing into the realm of playing with bad habits. I believe that is what needs to be addressed.
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AZTBNDAD
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer a couple of questions amd comments....

The brass tech is a trumpet player...I've heard he is a former Bluedevil, probably the rationale for his technique.

This is a pretty well off school, so most kids have good equipment and the middle schools are consistent in that every trumpet is on a Bach 7c at least when they hit high school.

The consensus from the other forums is that since this is completely uninstructed...that this is the likely cause of the poor performance....a preminent fixture on one forum used the shoe analogy...which I think is funny.

An interesting thought on the listening...if they dont do that in normal play, why would they do it during pedal tones? And is that worth trashing the upper range across the line?

I'm going to stick to my first instinct and let my son keep off the pedals...

It is a really sad sound when the alto voice (mellophones) is the dominate voice on the field.

The director has transposed the school fight song down a 5th, so it is easier to play...so I guess he's admitting the problem....
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how this question ended up in the BE forum, as it has pretty much zero to do with BE. Perhaps it is an illustration of an unbalanced approach?

Basically, it sounds like instructors at the school are throwing together a collection of exercises without understanding the mechanics of embouchure.

In my view, undirected pedal tones are often much worse than no pedal tones at all. Pedal tones can be part of a balanced strategy for range development, or they can be an obstruction. And that idea also applies to most other trumpet techniques, so no big surprise there.

I understand your frustration, and your desire to affect a positive change. Have you discussed this with the head band director? If he is not on board, it won't happen.

Jeff
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AZTBNDAD
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I put this in the wrong forum...I figured this would be where I would get the most focused response.

No, I have not approached the band director on this. While he's a nice guy and all, I don't think he appreciates input from parents...he has kind of a "it's my program and therefore, it's my program" thing going...
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll repeat that a pro teacher is your best bet to teaching your kids how to survive both the pedals and the mouthpiece. And if a well respected teacher sends note to the band instructor telling them that his students are not allowed to play extensive pedals or on a 5C then you might have a chance to change to policy.
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AZTBNDAD
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I didn't mention that the pro-teacher (DM Performance Bass Trombone) we did have for both my boys (recently moved away, new one in the works for the younger) did not recommend the use of pedal tones for the low brass at his level. (Must have deleted that during editing...sorry.)

We've used that as the backup for discontinuing hem, but the brass tech wants him to play them anyway.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be no real harm in doing nothing. Serious students may leave the organization and the frustration with range will persist for those who remain and their leader. Sometimes the best fix is to leave things broken until those folks with the power to a affect change decide on a different approach.
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AZTBNDAD
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veery715 raises a good point. Just circumvent the problems until you are out.

I guess the only part of that which kind gnaws at me is the amount of $$$ spent to produce what is quickly becoming a mediocre performance result.

This program will spend about $250,000 on the marching band season alone...$180,000 of which comes directly from the parents.

The other issue is how many potentially good life-long players are walking away from a lack of success at this level.

I'll have to do some pondering on this...but thank you everyone for the great input.
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CdS?
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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZTBNDAD wrote:
To answer a couple of questions amd comments....

The brass tech is a trumpet player...I've heard he is a former Bluedevil, probably the rationale for his technique.

This is a pretty well off school, so most kids have good equipment and the middle schools are consistent in that every trumpet is on a Bach 7c at least when they hit high school.

The consensus from the other forums is that since this is completely uninstructed...that this is the likely cause of the poor performance....a preminent fixture on one forum used the shoe analogy...which I think is funny.

An interesting thought on the listening...if they dont do that in normal play, why would they do it during pedal tones? And is that worth trashing the upper range across the line?

I'm going to stick to my first instinct and let my son keep off the pedals...

It is a really sad sound when the alto voice (mellophones) is the dominate voice on the field.

The director has transposed the school fight song down a 5th, so it is easier to play...so I guess he's admitting the problem....


Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

In my shoehorning all of the kids onto a 5C and insisting on Blue-Devils style routine complete with pedal tones will do nothing positive for the program.

Marching band is not drum corps, no matter how desperately some instructors would like it to be. There's so much less time and instruction available in the marching band season that you just can't get to the level of detail that you can with a corps program.

I think the shoe analogy is a good one, and I think your school's program would greatly benefit from a more "traditional" approach to brass instruction.

Yes, there's always an ebb and flow in talent when you look at high school programs, but do see a steady sustained decline should be setting off some alarms.
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w00005414
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should spend that money on BE books! One for each kid

In all seriousness, I avoid two lip pedals at all cost, they promote tight corners for me.

Good luck
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: the Reply with quote

The band director is a moron. Set on self. Self destroy everything around me..but..it's MINE.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This program will spend about $250,000 on the marching band season alone...$180,000 of which comes directly from the parents.

How much do they spend on the music season?

I would advise not supporting that marching band.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: hey Reply with quote

Nate I'm selling a Reeves underpart that would probably fit a 43 rim...014 deeper s w 692 backbore and 28 throat
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZTBNDAD wrote:

No, I have not approached the band director on this. While he's a nice guy and all, I don't think he appreciates input from parents...he has kind of a "it's my program and therefore, it's my program" thing going...


I would personally enjoy the chance to smack him silly upside his head, on your behalf, while berating him with the fact this "his program" is not only terrible but is stunting the development of an entire generation of brass players. Fortunately its just in one school. Right? Please tell me none of these IDIOTS are teachers who travel around to different schools, infecting yet more young minds that are supposed to be able to trust them?

Good on ya for telling your son to drop the pedals, but I strongly suspect that's not enough. I think you'll need to follow your instincts in other areas as well.

All that being said, I'm very surprised a former trumpet player with the Blue Devils doesn't have an entire trumpet section where everyone can play at least a good strong high G, sustained for a full breath. I had that in 6th grade. If he had those results and were doing the exact same "program," I'd be fine with it. Results are everything, and these goons needs to be confronted with a hard dose of reality that the results are TERRIBLE.

Sorry if that's harsh. Rant over.
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