Carol Brass Quality--Not So Good?

MacMichael · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 646

A mentioned before, Carol Brass valves surely have to stand the test of time,
even if they are no new kids on the block any longer.

Regarding the CB flugel: Never tried one, but admittedly it does not sound like a good idea to so...

brianj · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 239

Hi

I would think it's fair comment to say that most manufacturers have a bad horn or two every now and again. Though I must say that the Carols I have tried have been very good, and a player I really trust who has tried many more than me really rated them.

The problem I find with these threads is always the same - why the heck would you buy a hooter that has suspect intonation?? The thing is, you try it, find out if you like it or not, then you buy it.....or not. And if you're very lucky and have a good rapport with the shop you're buying from you can try it in the setting you intend to use it to see if it fits in.

To buy a hooter with dodgy intonation - I just don't understand it! Of all the faults that are easy enough to detect before you put down the cash - intonation is one of the easiest.

all the best

brian jones

LittleRusty · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:00 am Post subject:

If one has the proper quality control steps it should be possible to avoid the occasional dog. An inspection camera for the internal solder blobs, a detail person to inspect the fit and finish, a professional to play the instrument and check the tuning and tone.

i suspect that the shops that let a dog out either have employees who are disillusioned or simply don't want to take the financial hit on their bottom line to refit the instrument.

Another thing to keep in mind is that one's favorite mouthpiece might not fit the same in the new instrument you are trying.

fredo · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:09 am Post subject:

My CB flugel is perfectly in tune after 10 minutes of warm up.

The leadpipe and the combination with the mouthpiece seems to make a big difference.

I use the biggest of the two provided, with a Wedge trumpet shank and my Wedge flugel top.

Homebilly said in a recent topic on a Martin Committee :

"yes, well with slots wider than the grand canyon you can imagine.
that is what was the pain in my butt while playing at f and above"

That can be also a part of the intonation problems that some of us had with this flugelhorn because the slots are very wide, the constancy of fabrication quality of the CB horns seems for me to be one of the best in the industry.
_________________
Frederic FELTZ
Yamaha XENO 2 8335 S
Lotus 3L brass

zackh411 · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject:

Summation of my experience with Carolbrass:

My Carol C trumpet (4000H I think):
- My teacher, a local pro, playtested against his Bach. He plays C for nearly everything. Does a lot of quintet work, musicals, etc. He said it plays more in tune than his horn, and would be recommending it to his students that ask about C's. He wouldn't buy one, because he's enamored with my friend's gold plated Bach Strad C, which is one of the finest horns I've ever played.
- Let some sectionmates playtest before a rehearsal last week against a C another sectionmate was considering buying. Both of them loved it, and thought it played better than nearly any C they had played. Both of these guys are very serious players.
- No one's every complained about my sound/intonation/anything when I've been playing it. I frequently use it in jazz bands because I hate soloing in the key of G Concert on my Bb.
- It took some time before my valves really started feeling good. I cleaned out the horn, then started a daily regiment of valve-oiling and Clarke studies on it. The valves got better, and I got better at scales.

Carol 7000 Series at Chicago Trumpet Hang:
- I don't recall the specific model, but this is one of the few (out of like a hundred) horns that stuck out for me that day. I straight-up sounded like Maynard on it. Played in tune, easy blow, mechanically solid, very unique open sound. Excellent trumpet.

Carol Student Models:
- The music store I worked at for a while started carrying these. These student models feel like pro horns. Solid intonation. Mechanically solid third valve slides. Only complaint: valves take a while to break in. I played one while teaching lessons for a few weeks. Had to oil them daily. After a couple of weeks they seemed to be "broken in" and didn't require the maintenance. I had a similar experience with my C trumpet.

Carol Intermediate Models:
- The store got a few of these in as well. I generally found their playing characteristics to be indistinguishable from the student models. A few came with rounded tuning slides; their intonation didn't seem to be as good as with the D-shape slides.

Carol Pro Models:
- The store got a few of these in as well. They came with some pretty unique configurations. Nothing too out there, but more out-of-the-box than your average Bach Strad. Both of the pro horns I tried were large bores. They came with rounded and D-shaped slides. They weren't my cup of tea, but still great playing horns, and barely into the 4 digit price range (even with this particular stores generous markup).

General:
I demo'd a few Carol student model horns for band teachers in the area. All of them were skeptical, and a few dismissed them out-of-hand. One had brought her Bach strad with her to playtest against. In a blind test where I played and she listened, she picked the Carol over her Bach strad, a pro model Conn, and a student model Getzen every time (usually it was Carol/Getzen/Bach/Conn). When we switched the test and she played, it was the same order; she liked the Carol best. Inexplicably, she still recommended all of her students rent Bach trumpets. This particular teacher is also notable for hating Getzen horns (which ticks me off, because I think the Getzen student models are some of the finest around). It just goes to show you how firmly people stick to their biases, even when confronted with evidence to the contrary. Not that I would really have considered any of these people to be "serious players." Most of them have band director chops so bad they couldn't distinguish between a 3C and a 14a4a (slight exaggeration).
I still prefer Yamaha student model horns, but I find the Carols to be close approximations with a nicer price tag. I don't recommend them to students who give me the impression that they won't take care of their stuff, because of the "high maintenance valves" in newer horns.

jojocat · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject:

razeontherock · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject:

Ok stupid question in a stupid thread: the ACB doubler's flugel we've heard so much about; is it made by Carol Brass?

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180

That is actually a good question, and you may want to ask Trent Austin directly. I do not see how ACB horns could be made by Carol Brass given that Carol Brass is made in Taiwan and ACB is made in PRC.

brianj · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 239

BGinNJ · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 380

I ordered my Carol 5000-YLT sight-unseen based on a pro's ( who I take skype lessons with) recommendation. I was not disappointed! The 3rd valve was a little sticky initially, but that cleared up with cleaning & a little polish. It had been a demo horn, so who knows how much the valves had been broken in.
Nearly 2 years later, I'm still happy with it, sound & intonation are great. I've tried other horns since, but haven't found anything better- just different- and I'd have to spend a lot more money.

A sample of one doesn't mean much, whether you think they're poor quality or great. Positive on-line reports from players seem to greatly outnumber negative ones. It's a fair question whether they'll hold up long term, since they're fairly new on the market.

gregplo · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:48 am Post subject:

As per my signature, I have several CarolBrass horns...two XL bore Bb Trumpets, a Pocket Bb trumpet, a Cornet, and a Flugelhorn. I haven't had any issues with the valves on any of the horns...every one came out of the case working better than any horn I've ever had in the past with the exception of Getzen, and in my experience, they are on equal par with the Getzen valves I've had in the past as well as the Getzen made Canadian Brass CB10 I still own.

I also haven't had any serious intonation problems with any of the horns. All of my horns were bought at different times, months or years apart. Build quality has not been an issue on any of them, with the exception of some lacquer on one of the horns (the CTR-5204). My newest CarolBrass horn (my primary Bb trumpet) is 2 years old, and my older horns are up to 4 1/2 - 5 years old, including the Flugelhorn. No issues with the valves on any of the five. I certainly can't speak for every horn they make, but my experience has been excellent overall...
_________________
Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610

Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound....

cshuetva · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Oct 2004 Posts: 207

cshuetva · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Oct 2004 Posts: 207

OldEmo · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:36 pm Post subject:

Their valves have a very tight fit but still do work pretty well right out of the box. I think that's a sign of precision, not of quality problems. I own three CB instruments and none ever had sticking valves. They did blacken the cleaning cloth for quite some time, though, until the piston surface became shiny in most places but again they were not sticking at all. It's true that there was lots of dirt stuck in there at first, but then again I've seen that with other brands as well.

In comparision, the highly touted Bauerfeind valves on my Adaci trumpet (also stainless steel, like CB) were sticky for half a year no matter what oil I used. They work just great now, but getting there was a chore.

@fredo: thanks for the hint about the CB flugel with the Wedge MPC on trumpet shank. I have a Wedge FLX flugel top and just tried this, plays much easier with the trumpet shank indeed.
_________________
Romeo Adaci Eleganza
CarolBrass CTR-5002-YLT
Carol CFL-620
Martin Standard Cornet

cshuetva · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Oct 2004 Posts: 207

Trptbenge · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:42 am Post subject:

I have had the opportunity to test several Carol Brass trumpets over the past few weeks. All of them played fine - not great where they blew me away. The valves on all of them were very good without any issues. I liked the balanced model the best. For the price they are a good value. Especially considering the price of horns today. As far as valves go I have owned and played a lot of Kanstul's. I have always found that they have a longer break in period than some other horns like yamahas.

I know that the Bach Artisan horns have been discussed as well. I played a couple of them at the Selmer booth at a trumpet festival a few years ago right after they came out. I was not overly impressed with them. However, I played a couple recently at a store that were very good.

Mike
_________________
It's the sound that makes the difference!

trumpaholic · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:47 am Post subject:

Have owned 4 Carol Brass trumpets including the Balanced Model which I have listed here on the trumpet herald. NEVER EVER experienced any valve issues other than normal break-in which one gets with most new trumpets.

Mechanics on all 4 were excellent right out of the box with my only complaint of the durability of the lacquer which is not good at all.
_________________
Have horn, will travel!

trumpethead · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject:

Every CarolBrass horn I've owned and played are/were fantastic, even the student model. Intonation, valves, performance; all excellent.

I sincerely believe that at their price-point, I wonder why anyone would consider paying more.

If they were priced akin to other brands, then of course the choice would be much more difficult, as there are plenty of great horns around.