• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

3rd Valve Tone ring



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Cliff Fitch
Veteran Member


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 435
Location: Azle, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: 3rd Valve Tone ring Reply with quote

What does a 3rd valve tone ring do? I see that they come with some new Bach's. Thanks
_________________
1977 Bach Stradivarius Model 37 (Lacquered)
1972 L.A. Benge 3X+ MLP (Lacquered)
Member: International Trumpet Guild
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a page on the Kessler Music website that talks about this. Here's what it says:

"The 3rd valve tone ring is not a new concept but simply this is Bach's officially manufactured version of it. Developed at the request of artist Michael Sachs (Principal Trumpet for Cleveland Orchestra) for the Bach Artisan trumpet line, some players feel this ring helps accentuate the tone of the instrument.....particularly the Bb and C."

Does it really do anything? Beats me.
_________________
HERMOKIWI


Last edited by HERMOKIWI on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11276
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Here's a link to a page on the Kessler Music website that talks about this.

http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/trumpet/bachparts.htm

Veddy interestink.

I get "Page Not Found..." when I click on the link.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Here's a link to a page on the Kessler Music website that talks about this.

http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/trumpet/bachparts.htm

Veddy interestink.

I get "Page Not Found..." when I click on the link.


I got "page not found" too. So I went back and edited my post to quote what was on the page I got the link from. I don't know why the link didn't work because I copied it directly from the page.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missing the letter "l" and the end of the URL. Should be

http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/trumpet/bachparts.html
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.

So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11276
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.

So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined.

or less emphasized or prominent. But remember this is one of the 99% that are not wild things.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
C.E.Divine
Veteran Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I remember reading, a lot of energy of the trumpet is lost around the knuckle going in to the 3rd casing. This allows the player to get closer to the supposed point of loss than say a heavy bottom cap on the 3rd casing. Voodoo? Maybe, maybe not. I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference.
_________________
Corey Divine

Bach LR19043B B-flat
Blackburn converted Bach C
Kanstul CC920 Piccolo
Blessing XL Flugelhorn
J.W. York and Sons Perfec-Tone B-flat/A Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jungledoc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Posts: 613
Location: Papua New Guinea

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Accentuate:
1. to give emphasis or prominence to.
2. to mark or pronounce with an accent.

So, if you don't use one your tone will be de-emphasized, obscured, undefined.

Of course, those of us who have bad tone want it de-emphasized, obscured and undefined.
_________________
Andy

I'll admit it. It's a TR300, but it wants to be a Strad when it grows up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
darksmoke
Regular Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2020
Posts: 24
Location: Washington

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.E.Divine wrote:
I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference.

Do let us know if you get around to your new bottom cap idea and how it works out, sounds interesting
_________________
Bach LT1901B
1926 Conn 22B NYS
1913 Conn New Invention "Circus Bore"
-Parduba 6 1/2 & Bach 5C Megatone, 6BM, 3E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Veteran Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 479

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resonance is a form of energy transfer by sympathetic vibration.

This sympathetic vibration is sustained and adds to the existing vibration at the resonant frequency of the material being stimulated.

A water molecule has a resonant frequency of 24 gigahertz and a microwave oven generates frequencies in the 24 gigahertz band. The water molecules in food and drink are stimulated and absorb this energy causing them to heat up.

Heating is a form of transfer of energy and energy loss, and is put to good use here as an oven.

In an automobile the suspension has a resonant frequency and this would lead to a very bouncy ride if a damper were not used to absorb the energy in the vibrations of the suspension. A shock absorber turns the movements of the suspension into heat in a slightly different way to that of the transfer of energy into heat that happens in a microwave oven but the principle holds.

As for trumpets the material of the trumpet is vibrated by the standing wave in the instrument. The heavier the material the lower its resonant frequency.

The standing wave contains energy and this energy when it vibrates the material of the instrument at the resonant frequency of the material will cause energy to be lost from the standing wave into the fabric of the instrument and this will weaken the standing wave so as to be no longer available to emerge strongly from the bell in any resonated frequencies.

Adding a tone ring can be considered a form of tuning of the instrument to propagate some frequencies and to dampen others.

This is not the whole story however as with water molecules that heat up over time, resonance increases as more energy is applied to the water.

A resonating element such as a tone ring will be increasingly stimulated as the standing wave transfers energy to it and the tone ring will then add resonant energy back into the standing wave.

The result that we can expect is a propagation of lower frequencies that will add core to the tone and a dampening of unwanted higher pitches.

The tone ring and the valve block will form a system and the tone ring can be expected to affect to some degree the entire valve block by changing the resonant characteristics of the entire valve block.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1854
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think tone rings have an affect, a very subtle one. I've been using them for years on all my Bach's, currently experimenting with the idea on a SChilke Eb Cornet.

I feel the difference in swapping them on and off - I like the results so, I think it helps thus I play better.
The other thing I see are O-rings against the bottom cap - Curry supplies some with his heavy caps. I think they have a similar affect, a tic more deadening.
I've seen C Trumpets with O-rings on all three valves.

Back in the day there were players that used Grime Gutters - loosen the bottom caps so they are ever so lightly in place and put the grime gutter on.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Divitt Trumpets
Regular Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 68
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.E.Divine wrote:
From what I remember reading, a lot of energy of the trumpet is lost around the knuckle going in to the 3rd casing. This allows the player to get closer to the supposed point of loss than say a heavy bottom cap on the 3rd casing. Voodoo? Maybe, maybe not. I enjoy trumpets with heavy trim myself, and once my lathe skills increase, intend to machine a style of bottom cap I have never seen before that combines the cap and tone ring concept. Just an experiment in energy transference.


Something like the Dennis wick tone collar?
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1144
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
... I see are O-rings against the bottom cap - Curry supplies some with his heavy caps. I think they have a similar affect, a tic more deadening.
...

---------------------------
I've recently put an o-ring inside each bottom valve cap - and they do seem to make a difference.
Suitable size o-rings can be found in hardware stores, Home Depot, etc. When you go to buy, take one of the valve caps along with you.
For me, just having the bottom cap (with the o-ring) mildly snug-tight works well.

With the o-ring, I feel less vibration of the horn itself, and hear what seems to be a 'fuller' sound.
My guess is that the reduced 'felt vibrations' results in more 'sound energy'.

A search of TH will find several older threads about using o-rings.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Looking out my backdoor
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Sept_25_web.jpg beginning of Fall
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Locutus2k
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Location: Rome, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought that o-rings should placed between the bottom cap and the casing, not inside the bottom cap itself.
Closing more or less the cap(s) with the o-ring will change the way the horn vibrate in some frequencies, common opinion is to leave the third very light, almost unscrewed, tighten very well the second and a bit less the first.
_________________
------------------------
Edwards X-13
Lawler TL5 Balanced 30th Anniversary (#2 of 5)
Lawler TL5 L bore
Bach NY Special edition 2008
Flugel Van Laar Oiram Ack
Mark Curry mouthpieces
------------------------
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group