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Benge 3x+ question/problem



 
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Trumpet1Ohio
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Benge 3x+ question/problem Reply with quote

ive owned and played Benge trumpets for most of my adult playing days and always loved the way they played and sounded. About 6 or so months ago I purchased a mid 70s LA Benge 3x+. I have a couple friends that play the
MLP and have heard great things about them. When I received the horn I took it to a couple rehearsals and really struggled with the way the horn played. It seemed ok until I got to the upper register. The D and E are both extremely flat and are difficult to slot. The D can be played 1-3 in tune but the E can't be played in tune with any fingering. I checked the gap and it was extremely large so tried a shim kit and also a D taper backbore from Warburton. There may be a bit of an improvement with the Warburton backbore but nothing to get excited about. I've had the horn completely checked over by a very competent repair shop and they found nothing. They checked valve alignment, scoped the horn to look for obstructions, but nothing! I have to wonder if the problem is making the adjustment from a .460 bore to a .464. I've played a couple .464 Renaissance horns and had no problems. I ll appreciate any ideas. I'd like to sell it but don't want to misrepresent the way it plays. Think I'm stuck with a lemon.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Benge trumpet responds well to less of a gap between mouthpiece and leadpipe, i.e., pretty close to the leadpipe. If you have a long gap (3/16" - 1/4" or more) it probably won't help. It's difficult to zero this in without a Reeves sleeve and/or Stomvi coupler system.
-Lionel
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Benge 3x+ question/problem Reply with quote

I'm a big believer in player-mpc-horn combination, it just works sometimes.
On the other hand, no matter what you do it might not! I had a CG Benge that
I wanted to like REALLY bad...nothing I tried worked, ended up selling it.

I just sold a 3x that I thought was really close, just a hair tight upstairs.
Might have to try the MLP again- I had one years ago that I didn't like but
it was pretty beat up.

Anyway, I see alot of Benges on ebay so maybe the .460 would suit you better.

Peace,
-Dennis
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Steve Hollahan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:39 am    Post subject: Benge 3X Reply with quote

Is the d and e in the staff out of tune or above the staff? Are you pulled out too far on the T slide? What I.m suggesting is that the horn is new and where you place tuning slide might be too far out. Causes tuning or "slotting" problems,Warm up, tune for good intonation w/ tuner. Play middle c, low C, G, c, g, c'. Low C is a little flat, g usually slightly sharp, etc. We pull them in tune. If all these notes slot well and still the d and e are bad, you got a problem.

Also, are valves loose? Causes lots of problems.

The point of this answer is to say-Its a new horn, play it and tune it for a few months. Then decide if the horn is for you. Probably an OK horn

Have your buddies check it out, too. Somebody might want it.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not very helpful here, but my '80 3X+ has none of those problems, but it does seem to be rather "mouthpiece sensitive."

Brad
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
My Benge trumpet responds well to less of a gap between mouthpiece and leadpipe, i.e., pretty close to the leadpipe. If you have a long gap (3/16" - 1/4" or more) it probably won't help. It's difficult to zero this in without a Reeves sleeve and/or Stomvi coupler system.
-Lionel


This. I've been experimenting with Stomvi couplers for several months and thought that I had the gap optimized with a #3 coupler. Last week on a whim I tried a #5 and was amazed at the difference the smaller gap makes.

If only I had known this when I was testing a friend's Benge 3X ML that was cutting me off above the staff. Unfortunately, he sold it last week. Another Benge that got away

Kent
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johnjenloe
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:16 am    Post subject: Benge 3X+ problems Reply with quote

I had a Benge 5x that needed a 2.5 Reeves sleeve to center it in and make it play well. Different shanks on different mpcs. greatly effect the way it plays. I had the valve alignment checked and that helped too. But, the valves were a little loose too. So... try some heavier(different) valve oil, and some different mpcs. and see what happens. I don't think that moving to the bigger bore should be a problem, it should open the horn up. Keep playing it and see if it gets better for you, if not, sell or trade it. Have fun! John
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unclewawa
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my Benge MLP (around 1977) I play the high D open. To play the high E
in tune, I just arch my tongue up a little bit. After awhile, playing it in tune just becomes automatic as your playing will adjust.
Also, when I switched to a Curry 5* mouthpiece, my sound not only had significantly more presence, but the intonation issues seemed to go away.
On this horn, the correct mouthpiece can make a big difference.
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Trumpet1Ohio
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Benge 3X Reply with quote

Steve Hollahan wrote:
Is the d and e in the staff out of tune or above the staff? Are you pulled out too far on the T slide? What I.m suggesting is that the horn is new and where you place tuning slide might be too far out. Causes tuning or "slotting" problems,Warm up, tune for good intonation w/ tuner. Play middle c, low C, G, c, g, c'. Low C is a little flat, g usually slightly sharp, etc. We pull them in tune. If all these notes slot well and still the d and e are bad, you got a problem.

Also, are valves loose? Causes lots of problems.

The point of this answer is to say-Its a new horn, play it and tune it for a few months. Then decide if the horn is for you. Probably an OK horn

Have your buddies check it out, too. Somebody might want it.


The D and E I'm referring to are above the staff/above the "high C".
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: ughh Reply with quote

Listen..back in the day, when Benge had horns in stock in music stores, you could go in and try 10 mlp Benge trumpets.
In that ten you would find horns that should have never left the shop. Dogs. Same gap..tight valves. The slide crooks are different, the bell tapers are different, the way the receiver fits the horn is a big deal...the venturi sizes are all over the place...the receiver tapers are different. Most of it is up in the front of the horn usually, or the tuning slide. Ive seen different bore slides on horns.
Your horn, has issues. We used to call horns like that, "dogs".....see if you can find a few more. I have one that is later..like 35000..plays super in tune for a Benge..I play a CG..I may want to see one of my mlp's I have..3.
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Trumpet1Ohio
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's been a while since my last post regarding the 3x+. I've spent a bunch of time with the horn and have come to a positive conclusion. First of all, I played it on a. 3 hour gig in a 70's style horn band. I thought I could get away with it since I was blowing the 2nd part and didn't have to worry about the problem notes. Also, the guy playing first part plays both a 2x+ and a 3x+. I let him play it and he came to the conclusion that it wasn't any better or worse than any other old LA Benges he's played. He suggested I not give up on it and try optional fingerlings for the problem notes. I am having pretty good luck with the high D playing it open and the E played with the 3rd valve. I love the sound I get out of the horn and have decided I over reacted. I am going to play it this week and see how it goes. I've got a full playing schedule this week and am anxious to try it in a performance situation again. The only one I'm unsure about is a big band concert I'm playing lead on.

We'll see how it goes and will report back in a week.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpet1Ohio wrote:
Well, it's been a while since my last post regarding the 3x+. I've spent a bunch of time with the horn and have come to a positive conclusion. First of all, I played it on a. 3 hour gig in a 70's style horn band. I thought I could get away with it since I was blowing the 2nd part and didn't have to worry about the problem notes. Also, the guy playing first part plays both a 2x+ and a 3x+. I let him play it and he came to the conclusion that it wasn't any better or worse than any other old LA Benges he's played. He suggested I not give up on it and try optional fingerlings for the problem notes. I am having pretty good luck with the high D playing it open and the E played with the 3rd valve. I love the sound I get out of the horn and have decided I over reacted. I am going to play it this week and see how it goes. I've got a full playing schedule this week and am anxious to try it in a performance situation again. The only one I'm unsure about is a big band concert I'm playing lead on.

We'll see how it goes and will report back in a week.


Look to the mouthpiece as a possible place to change note pitch placement. Either Reeves sleeves or the Stomvi coupler systems are a good place to start. I've been amazed at how 1/32 of an inch in gap movement can help or hurt with tone, pitch, etc. It has convinced me through practical experiment with my 3x+ and other trumpets.
-Lionel
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Trumpet1Ohio
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:


Look to the mouthpiece as a possible place to change note pitch placement. Either Reeves sleeves or the Stomvi coupler systems are a good place to start. I've been amazed at how 1/32 of an inch in gap movement can help or hurt with tone, pitch, etc. It has convinced me through practical experiment with my 3x+ and other trumpets.
-Lionel


I'll look into them. I did try, with some success, switching from the standard Warburton "New York" backbore to the D taper version. I'll give Reeves a call and discuss my situation with them.

Thanks
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Wes Clarke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to Benge World. I've had my MLP 3X since early 1973 and played it nearly exclusively until 2006. Going back to it now, I have similar issues, although the D and E in the staff are more problematic than an octave higher. I've always played the D above high C open. A few hours on the horn and I make the adjustments without really thinking about them. It's a great horn. The slotting is a little mushy, but I get used to that as well. For what it's worth, I've played a Bach 3C since 1971.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvMmAqPMV90

Played on Benge MLP. Not too shabby.

Check compression, valve alignment, mouthpiece gap, and internal obstructions (solder blobs).
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Trumpet1Ohio
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvMmAqPMV90

Played on Benge MLP. Not too shabby.

Check compression, valve alignment, mouthpiece gap, and internal obstructions (solder blobs).


Great performance.

I had all you mentioned checked. Gap is the only obvious problem. Talked to a guy at Reeves today about sleeves. Will probably go that route.
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