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Trumpet range vs trombone range



 
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shootdeer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Trumpet range vs trombone range Reply with quote

I some friends who play trombone and are really good. One day they asked me about range and I told them I can consistently play the e above the high c. They said that was nothing because they can play above the double g(for them). I was just wondering if it is easier to play high on a trombone compared to a trumpet or are they really that much better than me.

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mm55
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trombones are much better than trumpets when you need something to pump out your flooded basement.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. They are that much better than you.
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Gordontrek
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a bass trombone player (yes, BASS trombone) who I played with in orchestra until last season. He's a fantastic player all the way around. But he was known for how HIGH he could play. Even his teacher freely admitted he couldn't play near as high as he could. I've heard him several times- it is INSANE how high he can play.
So one time the two of us went at it. In front of the whole low brass section, my C trumpet vs. his bass trombone in a range competition. I felt like an idiot trying to out-squeak a bass trombone with a C trumpet.
I lost.
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TWEAK
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play both trumpet and trombone. I have found my range on both instruments are about the same. There are some flexibility exercises on trombone in a book by Greg Waits that teach trombonists how to play "against the grain" while working on flexibility and it's done using chord changes at the same time. The first time I used this book I noticed a small increase in range on trombone and when I switched back to trumpet (I usually switch back and fourth immediately) I noticed an ease in my breathing and it really helped open the sound. So if there are any trumpet/trombone doublers out there reading this, google Greg Waits. His book is very helpful.
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly off OP but I have this friend who plays tuba. He's rather good ( won several Brass Quintet International prizes....)
When blowing a trumpet , double Cs / Ds are coming out.....
His words :
' Trumpet is more difficult than Tuba , which I don't need to practice that much '
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acrosros
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trombone players I've worked with in my time at school have either had insane range or really couldn't play in the upper register at all ... One told me that how she now approaches range is through gradually working up and down to pitches through slurs more like Clarke and Cichowicz flow studies instead of lip slurs using only the partials. She also showed me their "Warm Up from Hell" written by another trombonist that works in the same way.
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mrsemman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a bass trumpet, which I use a trombone mouthpiece. I use this instrument as a warm down after my regular practice session, and usually play the same music, but at an octave lower. I use the Parduba double cup Triple Star mouthpiece, a trombone mp with which I can easily play D or E above high C. But, it will still sound an octave lower. If you can do this on a Picc then it will sound an octave higher. I do not believe that the physics of the contest would be otherwise.

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jazzman99
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is also off OP, but I once cracked one of my private instructors ribs, who plays the euphonium. I was approached by one of my friends one rehearsal and he said "He said he could play higher than you." I wasn't gonna take that smack, naturally. So at our next lesson I said "Get out your trumpet mouthpiece. I heard you're talking trash." We went at it for about 10 minuets, then we both decided that our faces felt like hamburger, and that I could go higher than him... He came up to me at the next rehearsal we were at and said "look at what you've done to me." and he had his ribs wrapped.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard it said that players of baritone and trombone often "figure it out" earlier than trumpet players in terms of how an embouchure functions... This is in part to do with the fact that the mouthpiece rests on muscles whereas a trumpet mouthpiece rests between them. That means that using pressure is much less effective and they develop the correct face movements from the start.

I'm also curious about the difference in bore size means that you can squeeze out notes in a way that wouldn't produce notes at all on a trumpet.
Just give a trumpet player a mellophone and listen to them slide around in the super high register - its really easy, but they can't do the same with their own instrument. Plus there's no power or focus in the tone so it's basically a useless skill.

I think I've reached a point where I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore...
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GrowlerBox
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mostly play trombone, trumpet is a distant second for me. Are you guys talking about notes of the same absolute values, or relative to the tessitura of the instrument?

On trombone, my highest note (on a good day) is the concert F, top line of the treble clef; the lowest "normal" note for a straight tenor trombone (i.e. without additional valves) being the concert E on the first ledger line below the bass clef.

On trumpet (which is, as I say, a distant second instrument, or third, really, after double bass), I have the "high" C (concert Bb) above the treble clef, a 4th above my highest trombone note. Higher note, but significantly smaller range, if you catch my drift.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been told that what's difficult on bone is the low range
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
I've been told that what's difficult on bone is the low range
I believe that's correct for real symphony-type players. Of course, the good ones there also have to be able to handle the alto bone for Mozart and the like.

As far as upper range, if memory serves me right, the first bone is playing a unison Ab''' (in tot speak) with the 1st cornet part on the ...Scaffold in Sym Fantasitque- I remember about 40 years ago John Hill telling me not to miss that note because he might just leave it out- kidding, of course, but we were unison up there. I've played it many times since and always kept that in mind... Then, of course, there's the solo in Ravel "Bolero"- high and sweet. Tons of examples when one crosses over into the jazz/commercial realm.

Bone is a "strange" feel for many valved brass folk because there is little resistance coming from bends, turns and choke points in the tubing and valvces. Baroque trumpets are quite similar in that manner. (Resistance is not a bad thing in tone production IME.) The embouchure needs to become fairly efficient early-on when learning to play trombone or things just won't click- one will have to breathe after every other note, and the tone will not have the characteristic resonance and vibrancy. Trumpet, horn tuba and baritone/euphonium is easier to fake out a decent tone in the beginning, IMO, and some of us never get beyond that, to our own detriment.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely agree. When in school my trombonist friends would always be discussing mysterious things like "big sound" and "support" which as a trumpet player I was completely oblivious to. All we cared about was high notes + lip trills

Now a few years later and a million+1 embouchure problems figured out, I am starting to get what they were talking about. So yeah, I guess trombonists probably get their focus on the right things earlier on - and perhaps get better results on average. They always seemed to be able to squeak higher (relatively) than us trumpets on average, e.g. very few tpt players could sound a concert F (high G) whereas most trombonists could do the octave below.
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Matt K
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First post! I realize it was kind of a necrobump, but it's on the front page so I can post right?

I'm a trombonist that just started doubling on trumpet. Half a masters degree in trombone performance etc. etc.. The range of a trombonist, just as with trumpet, is going to depend on what level of performer you're talking about and what they do.

Among the best players (tenor and bass), you're going to generally find that they have a pleasing tone from the lower pedal range (several lines below the bass clef staff) up through the altissimo range (F on top of treble perhaps up through the Bb above this). Pretty much anyone in a major symphony/top tier military band as well as the notable freelances have this kind of range.

On the trombone, the F attachment is used primarily by classical players. Some jazz players use them, but typically what you'd consider a "jazz" (tenor) trombone is a slide bore size from 485 through 508. Classical (tenor) players almost exclusively use a 547 slide bore size. Bass trombones almost exclusively use a 562 bore size, independent of what genre they're playing. A 525 slide bore is considered "medium" bore, and is sparsely used by classical players for things such as scaled down pre-romantic music, particularly if an alto trombone is playing 1st. Some jazz players use a 525, and it's very common among certain commercial players who need to be good at everything without having a particular niche. A lot of players who do pit work may use this bore exclusively. This is relevant to range because 525 is typically as small a horn as is made with an F attachment, with very few exceptions (King 3BF, custom Shires models, frankenhorns). The F attachment is necessary for bridging the low F down to the pedal Bb. Without the extra tubing, those notes must be played as "false" tones (lipped down a 5th), which aren't really feasible for most types of playing.

As such, some exclusively jazz players may forego this range (although many can still make it work) and focus on higher range, opting for comparably small equipment (both mouthpieces and horns). The two guys that immediately come to mind are Frank Rosolino and Bill Watrous. Rosolino has a way of making things sound lower than they realy are. You go to look at the transcription or transcribe him and think "there's no way he's playing this high!"

If you're doing writing for a bone part and don't know the quality of the player, that trumpet range down one octave is a good rule of thumb. For the developing player, particularly just an average trombonist in undergraduate/graduate school may have difficulty hitting notes above F (bottom of treble staff) without a frame of reference, though they may be able to play up to the C a 5th above that. Playing in that range for an extended period of time can be problematic and tiring for players at this level. This isn't meant as a disparagement, as this is in comparison to literally the top tier of player. If writing for even a relatively competent undergraduate student, I might not put a melody that high in their part unless I knew the player could handle it.

On the other side of the equation, the average tenor trombonist in undergrad/grad school is going to think it quite odd to see notes below F (bottom of bass clef) written, even if they are capable of playing it, if a bass trombone is present. Sometimes the composer/arranger wants that timbre change. Sometimes the composer/arranger just doesn't realize what they're doing. The latter is often just assumed. However, if a part simply says "trombone" and you're the only one (brass quartet/quintet, pit work, jazz combo), pretty much anything is fair game from pedal Bb (two spaces below bass clef) to around Bb (middle of treble staff).
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ML52K
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post is kind of not related to range, yet.

I am a comeback trumpet player. I have been away for a lot of years, I had lost interest as there are essentially NO playing opportunities in my area. However, I travel for work, an hour each direction, and radio fades in our rural area. So I started listening to podcasts. Bob Reeves podcasts with John Snell. Interviews of incredible trumpet players. Really good interviews. Low and behold, I started to learn things about embochure. And I got interested. Really interested in playing, even just practicing.

I was really impressed with teachings of Bill Adam and Greg Spence. So I started to do warm ups and some cursory exercises buzzing leadpipe. Now, my interest got piqued about a "pre warm up," such as Rafael Mendez wrote in his book. My problem is I don't like flapping bare lips. My nose itches and it just feels weird and uncontrolled. So, I got the idea of getting a large mouthpiece to buzz in prior to trumpet practice. I stuck a borrowed trombone mouthpiece in a leadpipe length 3/8 inch plastic tube and started buzzing.

A remarkable thing happened. I would buzz the bone piece, and certain aspects would not feel right and not work right. But after awhile, I would discover increased range and vastly improved sound, and this came about from discovering relaxed lips and, to me, the highly elusive pucker that is talked about so much. I could never find the sensation with the trumpet mouthpiece, but it seems to come out in the bone piece, and I have been able to now translate that feel into the trumpet mouthpiece.

The moral of the story, for me, at least, is that I am astounded by the range of the trombone range compared to the range of the trumpet mouthpiece buzz. But, the take home for me is that my trumpet sound, range, and endurance have taken on new life.

This is no kind of endorsement for trombone mouthpiece buzzing, and I certainly post with trepidation as I expect all the "get a lesson' guys will flame me like crazy. But my own experience seems to hint that trombone range is really remarkable.
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