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roll-in and pedal slurs help



 
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Asian Man
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can't seem to get the hang of rolling in. i just recieved the book today. i'm supposed to bunch my chin and puff my cheeks right? also when doing the roll-out pedal slurs, do i stay rolled out in order to play a low C and higher when doing these slurs? one last question, i know the book says practice both methods at the same time but should i start rolling in when i get used to the rolling out?
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Bob Cross
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím sure you are excited to receive the book today after all the great stuff you have heard. Itís all true in my experience - but only if you read the book and are PATIENT AND PERSISTENT.

Donít worry about slurs or any of the more advanced exercises. First read the book several times - every word. Then work on getting the correct sound for a roll out double pedal and a lip clamp squeak. Repeat the cycle of

1. Carefully read the exercise instructions - every word.
2. Listen to the CD.
3. Try to duplicate the sound.
4. Donít worry if you canít duplicate the sound. You eventually will - and your playing progress is not dependent on making the right sound now. My playing range progressed most rapidly before I could even get a roll in tone - only a hiss. My roll in is still weak, and I doubt that I will ever play with that embouchure.

Donít worry about how you sound, or feel that you are failing if you donít produce a tone. Keep doing the exercises every day, regardless of how you sound or donít sound. Play around with things as Jeff advises and you will discover how to reproduce the sound on the CD, but make sure that you read and reread the book very carefully. Everything you need to know is in there.

Donít start slurring or dragging notes until you get the foundation - a good roll out and roll in sound - then progress through the exercises. I know the feeling of wanting to do it all in a night. BE doesnít work like that. You do the exercises and just notice how you improve over time.

Only a few months ago I thought high C - even A - was a really high note that would test my endurance, and that I had little chance of playing musically - and that notes like F and G above high C were impossible except for the gifted. Not anymore. My range and tone just keep getting better and I really wonder where it will stop - so do my fellow orchestra and band members and teacher, who are really wondering what the heck is going on with me. But be patient and resist the notion that these exercises donít seem too logical. They work.

The people here are practically all helpful and enthusiastic, so feel free to post. But the bottom line is that BE is a system for self-discovery and development. Just keep at it and you will see. I know from some of your other posts that you are concerned with mouthpieces. After getting into BE for awhile, call Bruce Lee at northernbrass.com. He knows BE and can give you some good advice there. I am playing on much smaller equipment now, and that has also made a difference. Before BE I could not have used that equipment with any kind of tone, but you will just find your embouchure being more and more focused and efficient as you keep at it.

Bob
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HJ
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

It astounds me how much our experiences are alike. It feels like I am reading my own story. I really like your point of view and your way of explaining things. Keep posting.

Bert
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

A great post! I started reading it, and I was so impressed how the cadence of the words you used just pounded into me, emphasizing the basic way to approach BE. Every BE beginner needs to read it.

I hope that you will give me permission to use this elsewhere, as you have really nailed it, encapsulating a lot of information in a very short space. This is not always easy to do.

Thank you! What a wonderful bunch of writers we have on this forum!

Jeff
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Bob Cross
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much Bert and Jeff. Of course, you or anybody is free to use anything I write here.
If I spend some time on my posts and seem enthusiastic, it is because I am.

I really wonder how many problems which are perceived as having a different cause are really range problems.
When I am not worried about range, I am not so tense, and think more about the music. Before, I spent time wondering if I would hit that C at the end, or crack during that long high passage.

I am not kidding when I say that I have a wall full of books. Nothing has approached BE for success. Actually, Jeff, I meant to write a "testimonial" for your website. So feel free to use any of my posts.

Bert - do you wonder how many people who really do the exercises have parallel stories? I do.
I also wonder what it is that makes us afraid to try new things. My fellow musicians are just shaking their heads about my improvement, but don't want to believe it is BE when I show them how I do the exercises. They think I am on lip steroids or something, I guess.

Bob
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barryj1
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, too, find certain aspects of the BE easier to master than others. I still struggle to hit a respectable (i.e. fat and flatulent) low F-sharp pedal tone, and after a rough day at work, my snaps on the top notes aren't nearly as crisp as they ought to be.

No matter. As long as a player does the daily BE drills, his/her playing keeps improving from week to week. There is a direct correlation between doing the BE routines and qualitative improvement. That is to say, even when the Balanced Embouchure exercises aren't sounding quite up to par, that you may still see dramatic success in other aspects of your regular playing.

Its like the business term ROI (return on investment). But you have to 'invest' in the method - put in the dues with BE - to reap the reward.

Barry

[ This Message was edited by: barryj1 on 2004-03-19 13:31 ]
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Asian Man
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

will using my regular embouchure slow down the effect of BE?
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Bob Cross
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really need to read the whole book, every word. Promise that you will do that straight away. Your question is answered in the section about BE being an indirect method.

You only change your embouchure for the exercises. They will develop new muscles and feelings - feelings of strength and movement. Then just go back to normal playing and pretty much forget about your embouchure and forget about BE. Things will happen unconsciously. I think Jeff has said that eventually some people find the roll in setting, or a version of it, comfortable for everyday playing. I haven't yet. But you are just starting - forget about that.

But please read the book carefully, because it is not a book about manipulating your embouchure or changing your setup or trying to put the horn on your face a certain way for everyday play. It is a book about strange exercises that will, without further conscious effort on your part, gradually make you a lot more powerful player. The beauty of it is that you do not have to translate the thoughts and feelings somebody else has while playing. You do the exercises and will naturally discover your own feelings and find your own balance - your own embouchure.

To paraphrase a saying from golf, you don't have to be dumb to do BE well, but it probably helps. (Just kidding). My point is that the more you do the exercises, the better you will get. The more you think about the theory behind the exercises, the more confused you may get. There is not much to think about. There is no BE embouchure. This is where it is so different from so many other types of embouchure approaches.

Check back in a few weeks and let us know how your are progressing.

Bob
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jarrelainen
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Bert said it right on on his webpage that, "BE is NOT a quick fix, BUT it is a sure fix"
so patience...

I have also just began doing the exercises, on my sixth day today, but allready I can feel something happening with my chops.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This a great thread. I wonder if we could rename it so that more BE beginners will find it in the future? We said these things a number of times before, but I think this is the most eloquent (thanks to Bob). Just a thought.

Dave
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Asian Man
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one last question, could my teacher help me with this? he doesn't use BE though
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<one last question, could my teacher help me with this? he doesn't use BE though>>>

You may want to read this thread. The WHOLE thread.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=17126&forum=29&8

Jeff

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetteacher1 on 2004-03-20 14:13 ]
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He, he... stealth BE works best with the flat-earth believers.

Dave
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[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest
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bent trumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been doing the BE for almost a week. The RO is going good, but the RI is a struggle. It seems like so much pressure is required. I still don't have anything that sounds like a G above the staff, but I try every day. I have noticed something is changing for the better. The air stream seems to be more focused in my regular playing, and sometimes the upper register seems easier.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bent, you're already receiving an indirect benefit, BUT keep experimenting and working with the RI. There's more to come.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest
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txtrumpetguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been going through old BE posts from the very beginning of the initiation of this forum in 2003. The things that Bob Cross says here have been immensely informative and encouraging to me so I thought I'd bump this thread back the the top. Keeps me going when my Roll Ins aren't working (which is more often than I'd like). Can't believe this post is over 10 years old!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

txtrumpetguy wrote:
I've been going through old BE posts from the very beginning of the initiation of this forum in 2003. The things that Bob Cross says here have been immensely informative and encouraging to me so I thought I'd bump this thread back the the top. Keeps me going when my Roll Ins aren't working (which is more often than I'd like). Can't believe this post is over 10 years old!



Quite amazing this is. I have been into BE for nearly 3 weeks now. Found that the RO exercises did not present any problems at all. Fact is I can
climb down to Triple pedal C(or whatever the name) chromatically. Sounding like a bass trombone .But gradually the sound gets more of a core. rather "flabby" to begin with. I think that my use of James Stamps method for many years now has been contributing to this. Feels like my lips getting rejuvenated, since I recently passed 73 very welcome
Roll in, mean old man look should suite me very well, but seems a bit more difficult although I do find a continuing process, day by day.

I had never ever heard of BE but getting notified here I visited the Smiley homepage and found something that "spoke" to me; a kind of gentle openness, humble even, that I found very congenial - a pro in my field as I am where new methods often are transformed into religions by the hour.
This is exciting! I took my first lessons ever with a pro barely 2 years ago, having played since the late 50ties; I found Charles Colin during the 70 ties, James Stamp mid 90ties (besides Clark Lin etc). So the idea of slowly unveiling the secrets all by yourself is not that new to me
I do wonder why it seems to work? Rejuvenating/stimulating lips/chops by encouraging bloodflow, advocating less pressure? Or what?
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Denis Wick Ultra 7C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C
Trumpets:
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do wonder why it seems to work? Rejuvenating/stimulating lips/chops by encouraging bloodflow, advocating less pressure? Or what?


Increasing lip range of motion, more or less in the right direction.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Interesting to see some of the richer threads rising to the top again.

Jeff
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Quote:
I do wonder why it seems to work? Rejuvenating/stimulating lips/chops by encouraging bloodflow, advocating less pressure? Or what?


Increasing lip range of motion, more or less in the right direction.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Interesting to see some of the richer threads rising to the top again.

Jeff



I am so enthusiastic, not that much time to loose , so I tend to miss what in fact happens-that, just as you pointed out, my lips move more freely than before. Noticed today that I could hit double pedal C with my bottom lip not that far rolled out as yesterday. Roll in is more difficult but I now can descend from G top of staff to G below staff.
Probably will have to refrain from tendency to rush!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Denis Wick Ultra 7C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970) Stork VM6
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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