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Flueskum
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Location: Finland
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: anchor tonguing |
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Hello TH
I was wondering if you could give me some inside when it comes to Anchor tonguing, I have seen some benefits but I'm still getting used to the transition.
If anyone has any text/exercises or any tips on how to work on this and smooth things out, that would be great.
Flueskum ! |
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McVouty
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Any single articulation exercises that you already play will do. The key is to start slowly and go for the best sound possible to build up the required coordination.
The simplest exercise would be to take a metronome - set to a mid tempo say 100pm. Start by playing whole tones on a G in the staff - when they feel smooth go to half tones, triplet half tones, quarter tones, quarter triplets and when you can manage it 16th. Once you can do it well on the G start to expand out up and down on the Ab, F# etc.
One thing I found helpful was to think in terms of 'super legato' - that is to say try and play with hardly any space between the notes - this ensures that you use your air and keep things smooth rather than choppy. You can go to more staccato once you have the smoothness at any given speed. Gerard Presencer refers to this as the 'hdah' approach - making sure that it is your air and not the tongue that starts the note.
Hope that helps |
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EBjazz
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely go to Eric's link and study it. Here's some more help:
Just going to quote myself from a recent post:
| John Mohan wrote: | I suggest you do the exercise that is the first one in Claude Gordon's book Tongue Level Exercises (ironically, it's the only exercise in the book that is not actually a tongue level exercise). You take a full breath, then start on Middle G and tongue notes on the G until you are half empty of air. Then you rest as long as you played, and repeat the exercise on G#. Continue up chromatically to middle C, and then work you way down to Low C. Speed is not important (at first). Just get a good, clean articulation in. As time goes on, you can add a metronome to the mix and gradually (over a period of years) build up your speed to surprisingly fast levels. As your tonguing speed increases the rate at which you can tongue with heavy accents, and/or staccato will increase as well.
In summary, don't worry. Practice.
Here's the instructions page and the actual exercise from the book (I think I'm within the realm of the "Fair Use" clause as this is for educational purposes and I am only providing a very small section of the book here). Pay close attention to the section starting with the words, "Place the tongue tip against the lower teeth, never rigidly, but lightly without pressing." as this explains the best way to tongue (the way most if not all virtuoso players tongue):
https://s25.postimg.org/rpn1uy959/Tongue_Level_Exercises_Intro_jpeg.jpg
https://s25.postimg.org/ezithv171/Tongue_Level_Exercises_Part_1_Exercise_1_jpeg.jpg
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
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Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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stanton
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I think I'm going to have to revisit anchor tonguing. It was actually the first type of tonguing I learned. There are some advantages to it. Here's the way I see it...
But anchoring your tongue on the bottom edge of your teeth it lays lower in the mouth and then it is primed to arch up AND FOWARD allowing the tongue to concentrate the air without restricting the airflow as much as other tonguing methods. I'll find the link later, but if you look at the video that John Mohan posted a couple months ago illustrating a French horn player playing inside an MRI machine anchor tonguing makes total sense.
But here's where it falls short for me (personally). As I never had braces, my front teeth have an odd formation. In legit circumstances the sound (attack) needs to have a very square, almost percussive "front edge". With my tongue on the bottom it is very difficult (ok, nearly impossible) to get that traditional "ping" in my attacks. With the tongue anchored I am more likely to get a "Phhh" sound rather than a "Thhh" sound. Cleanliness of attacks suffer. I'm sure that there are lots of folks who can anchor tongue and get clean attacks, but I can't seem to do it, even after two years of anchor tonguing exclusively (in college).
Secondly, anchoring my tongues seems to affect my embouchure and aperture shape. It feels radically different. Perhaps the unfamiliarity of feel is what I object to, but I think this can be worked through. Perhaps it's time for me to give anchor tonguing another chance and work on it as all my ensembles go on hiatus starting next week.
Thanks for bringing up the subject.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| stanton wrote: | I think I'm going to have to revisit anchor tonguing. It was actually the first type of tonguing I learned. There are some advantages to it. Here's the way I see it...
But anchoring your tongue on the bottom edge of your teeth it lays lower in the mouth and then it is primed to arch up AND FOWARD allowing the tongue to concentrate the air without restricting the airflow as much as other tonguing methods. I'll find the link later, but if you look at the video that John Mohan posted a couple months ago illustrating a French horn player playing inside an MRI machine anchor tonguing makes total sense.
But here's where it falls short for me (personally). As I never had braces, my front teeth have an odd formation. In legit circumstances the sound (attack) needs to have a very square, almost percussive "front edge". With my tongue on the bottom it is very difficult (ok, nearly impossible) to get that traditional "ping" in my attacks. With the tongue anchored I am more likely to get a "Phhh" sound rather than a "Thhh" sound. Cleanliness of attacks suffer. I'm sure that there are lots of folks who can anchor tongue and get clean attacks, but I can't seem to do it, even after two years of anchor tonguing exclusively (in college).
Secondly, anchoring my tongues seems to affect my embouchure and aperture shape. It feels radically different. Perhaps the unfamiliarity of feel is what I object to, but I think this can be worked through. Perhaps it's time for me to give anchor tonguing another chance and work on it as all my ensembles go on hiatus starting next week.
Thanks for bringing up the subject. |
Hi Stanton,
I think your problem is that you are literally anchoring your tongue tip and by doing so, you are limiting the function of your tongue to properly articulate in a variety of styles.
"Anchor Tonguing" is a bad name for this method of tonguing (as I've written about a bazillion times now).
Dorsal Tonguing or K-Modified Tonguing are much better descriptors. HLC Tonguing might be best, since it was Herbert L. Clarke who first published in his book Characteristic Studies a detailed description of this method of tonguing more than 100 years ago now (though most if not all virtuoso players have used this method over the ages).
The the tip of the tongue (or for that matter, any other part of the tongue) should never be "anchored" anywhere. The tip should be placed lightly (never rigidly) in the area behind the bottom teeth and it should be kept relaxed and allowed to move anywhere it wants to in that area. Sometimes depending on the note, articulation style, volume and range, it will even rise all the way to the top of the bottom teeth to the point where some would think they are no longer dorsal tonguing (aka K-Modified tonguing). But as long as the tip itself does not articulate the note, the tonguing method is correct.
I think that most players who have difficulty adopting this method of tonguing find it difficult because they try to make their tongue tips stay in a certain specific spot, usually pushing against their bottom teeth at the very bottom of their mouth for all notes. I think the term "Anchor Tonguing" promotes this wrong way of approaching the method. And I think you Stanton might be an example of this.
Don't worry about specifically where the tip of your tongue is, as long as it's somewhere in the area behind the bottom front teeth and not actively rising up and articulating in the area behind the top teeth. Your tongue tip might be in contact with the backs of the bottom teeth for some notes or all notes - or not. Generally it will be in contact with the backs of the bottom teeth as the note is articulated, and then back away from the teeth as the note is sustained. Note that is a generalization and doesn't apply to everybody. Just practice the exercise I outlined in my prior post, slowly at first, every day. Within a month I think you'll see the results you are looking for.
Done properly, K-Tongue Modified (KTM) tonguing (aka Dorsal Tonguing, or my new proposed name: "HLC Tonguing"), is good for extreme soft, extreme hard, legato and staccato tonguing - all forms.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
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EBjazz
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stanton
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:55 am Post subject: |
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John,
I just realized that I hadn't thought about this for a long time and when I sat down the analyze what I was doing, it wasn't at all as I thought. My natural tongue position is such that is LIGHTLY rests against my lower teeth in such a manner that tip of the tongue every so slightly touches the edge of the lower teeth so that half the tip is below the edge and the other half above the edge. It seems that most of the time I do not use the actual tip of my tongue for articulation, but this is an area I think I need to revisit as my top and bottom teeth may be to close reducing the size of my oral cavity.
So the question... How close should the top and bottom teeth be to each other? Jeanne Pocius talks about having the molars at least 1/4" apart which would make for a wide gap between tops and bottoms near the lips.
The other thing that I'm now becoming aware of is tongue motion. Somebody uses the term tongue "arch" or tongue "levels" and I immediately think of a vertical motion with the tongue. But only in the last day or so am I starting to think of it differently...
Understanding that my tongue utilization is different (than I thought) instead of thinking about moving the tongue up I am now experimenting with moving the tongue FORWARD. Of course if the tip says at or behind the lower teeth moving the approach of forward motion automatically provides the tongue arch, but does to in a more subtle and efficient manner. I'm going to have to play with this some more.
_________________
Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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EBjazz
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OndraJ
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Every time I try to fix the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth, my sound gets bad (It sounds like, when I start doing articulations with "K").
When I bring up the tip over the bottom teeth, that it touches the lower lip, the sound is good. The tongue strikes the upper lip and/or the upper teeth, with the area 3-5mm behind the tip, depending on volume and range.
The tip is never behind or above the upper teeth.
My speed is 116bpm 16th with clear articulation, still getting faster.
Should I try to fix the tip behind the bottom teehn and go for it for a while, or don't change things.
What are your thoughts? |
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EBjazz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Don't "fix" your tongue anywhere.
And just from what you've told me, a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality might work well without meeting you.
It all depends on your abilities and limitations. I will never say there is only one way to play the trumpet. However, everyone can improve, and improvement involves change.
Be honest with yourself about your abilities, limitations and future growth.
If you feel like you're doing well and have plenty of room to grow then don't change a thing. If you fell that you have hit a brick wall, pounding your head against it won't help.
Eb
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OndraJ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Eric.
I have noticed, that the tip of the tongue goes higher, when articulation gets faster.
Quater notes = tip behind the top of the lower teeth
16th = tip over the lower teeth, touching the lower lip
I'd love to hear what Pops have to say. |
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OndraJ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| OndraJ wrote: |
I have noticed, that the tip of the tongue goes higher, when articulation gets faster.
Quater notes = tip behind the top of the lower teeth
16th = tip over the lower teeth, touching the lower lip
I'd love to hear what Pops have to say. |
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Pops
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| OndraJ wrote: | Thanks Eric.
I have noticed, that the tip of the tongue goes higher, when articulation gets faster.
Quater notes = tip behind the top of the lower teeth
16th = tip over the lower teeth, touching the lower lip
I'd love to hear what Pops have to say. |
You asked.
That isn't anchor tonguing.
That may be closer to TCE.
Anchor tonguing has 3 great positive qualities and the way you tongue completely leaves out 2 of them.
Seriously teachers can't make students do the right thing. They have to be motivated enough to do it. WE can show you how but it is always up to you to do it or not.
YES it will sound horrible when you start doing it. Everything we change sounds horrible when we start doing it.
It all depends on if you want to sound ok now or great months from now. Growth involves some unpleasantness.
Devote 20 hours of actual tonguing and it clears up really well.
Tongue an hour a day and that is under 3 weeks. Tongue 5 minutes a day and that is 36 weeks. SO diligence is required to make it work (just like anything else.)
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OndraJ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Thank you very much, Pops.
Because I have troubles with fast attacks after slured phrases, I decided to try it. I think that the troubles are because the tip of tongue rests behind the lower teeth and have to be brought up for the attack.
Now I let the tip behind the lower teeth while attacking since monday.
Sound and speed gets better every day. Sometimes I felt tension in my throat, than I stop, reset and try to relax the tongue.
I am curios about the result afer a week or two. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:31 am Post subject: |
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From Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing by Claude Gordon, published by Carl Fischer Music, Inc.
https://s25.postimg.org/kxgn92sb3/Training_the_Tongue_from_BPINHTDB001_with_sectio.jpg
If you don't already have this book, you are not doing yourself a favor by not buying and studying it.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
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EBjazz
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| EBjazz wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't already have this book, you are not doing yourself a favor by not buying and studying it. |
Don't know if I've ever seen a triple negative, but what he means is: Buy the book!
Eb |
I know! My intent is to confuse everyone into buying the book. |
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OndraJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Okay. What I try since a few days, is just to let the tip do not go above the lower teeth. The tongue is always touching the lower teeth (except while breething) but is not pressed against it, so we could discuss if it is fixed or not.
Sound is still getting better. |
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telvanni26
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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love this book, totally recommend it |
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