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Mouthpiece "Trick"



 
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LeeC
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Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BE topic of the same name (I think anyway) reminds me of a similar experience I've had recently on the Lynch Assymetric mouthpiece.

In his book, Jeff mentions that at one point in his playing stage he shifted over to a smaller mouthpiece. After some weeks of practicing his range went up. Later when he shifted back to his regular, larger piece he kept the same range on the bigger piece.

That has been my experience too in the distant past and more recently on the Lynch.

The problem with mouthpiece changes is they really are embouchure changes at the same time. Sometimes they are minute changes, other times BIG ones.

Anyway, it took a few weeks of unserious puttering around on the Lynch until I noticed some very favorable additions of useable practice range. Happened as a surprise on my regular, receded jaw chops when I was doing a video of my secondary embouchure/rolled in formation. Wanted to show the range differences between the two systems.

Anyway, when I switched over to my receded jaw chops found that the Lynch piece was accidentally left in the horn. Not wishing to restart the boring, tedious video I kept on playing...

To my astonishment I did a damn nice three octave arpeggio from low C to double on my more "Range challenged" receded jaw chops! To make sure it wasn't an "accident" I did it twice in succession.

Here's the deal: My practice room range has gone up to at least a consistent, musical sounding B flat above high C as a result of patient re-training on the Lynch piece. The double C is a realistic turn around the bend too. Can play it as mentioned, but uses almost a little unfavorable amount of arm pressure so I don't declare it "in the book" yet.

What this is is an net increase of a major third to my musical sounding range AND extended ease of playing above high C! IE, am not using as much arm pressure as before.

The other thing I like is that the lip motion is less extreme from low C on up to the stratosphere. Seems like the chops are staying more in their "natural" postition. The transfer of lip strength to the facial muscles is more enhanced too. Almost feels like all I gotta do is use more air.

Of course more is going on than that described just above. Might add that I'm a very experienced player who's had a good high G for mucho years before. So the breaking of the "High G" barrier is a real thrill.

Now comes the more important part: Re-training my playing to give more or equal consistency below high C as I had on the prior concentric mouthpiece. Shouldn't take too long. Have incorporated the Lynch piece into rehearsals already. The only time I switch back to my regular mouthpeiece is when the articulation gets rapid but even that is improving.

Ah yes, all those other notes!

Footnote: Am told that I belong to a minority selection that likes to put the fat end of the assymetric piece on the top lip. Lynch recommends that players first start with the fat end on the bottom mentioning later that a certain smaller group chooses to play my way. Don't quote me on that one though. Gotta check out his website one of these days.
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mcamilleri
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Joined: 25 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WARNING! If you are a new-comer to BE, please do not try to understand or apply the following to your playing. You will likely only confuse yourself, and hamper your progress. It is very specific information for a very specific issue.

Jeff will probably blow me out of the water anyway for being too analytical.

Well I just had a great jamming session courtesy of Mr Aebersold and Miles, and was thinking about your post while going through Nardis – the distraction really helped me get through the chord changes! This time I didn’t warm up at all, and did no BE exercises either, just straight into playing. The only things I concentrated on were making sure I kept an air pocket in my lower lip in all playing registers (I tend to lose it above about G3, which is a sure sign of my chin flattening), and keeping my lips rolled in. It is very easy to know what to do, but hard to put into practice. Well, today I managed to keep the air pocket together pretty well and found a few high E’s pop out clean and easy, using my 5C piece.

Well, what has this ramble got to do with your post? A lot.

Still reading? Remember my warning!

I have played an Asymmetric mouthpiece in the past, and know what they are like. I too found it worked better upside down. By flipping the mouthpiece upside down you are effectively immobilising the top lip and making it flatter (i.e. less rolled in), and freeing up the bottom lip a bit enabling it to puff out a bit more and roll in a bit more (which is what I was doing tonight). You progress in range is, I believe, due to these subtle changes in lip position and the relative state of roll-in between the top and bottom lips.

I believe that you can achieve the same result on a concentric mouthpiece by making subtle changes in your mouthpiece placement and perhaps your pivot/jaw position.

The key to improving your high register in your current situation is to roll-in the bottom lip a tiny bit more, and roll-in the top lip a tiny bit less, at the right point as you ascend. Easy to say, hard to do.

Here are several things you should try, individually and in combination, and in varying degrees. Somewhere in this mix of mouthpiece placement, horn angle, and jaw position is a sweet spot that will give you a strong double C on a concentric mouthpiece. Go find it!

1) Lower your mouthpiece placement slightly (more bottom lip, less top lip), and maintain an air-pocket in the lower lip, even if the mouthpiece pressure squashes it.

2) Use less downward horn angle pivot. By using less downward pivot you can alter the balance of roll-in between the top and bottom lips, which will achieve what the Asymmetric mouthpiece is doing for you.

3) The receeded jaw has similar effects to an upward horn pivot, so by using your receeded jaw embouchure you are effectively using a less agressive downward pivot, which is 2). Experiment with jaw position.

4) You MUST keep mouthpiece pressure to a minimum as you experiment with these options.

The only differences between a player with a strong double G and one with a strong double C are very, very tiny changes in lip position.

Michael

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[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-01-23 03:05 ]
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,

A lot of truth to your post. Thing that makes the Lynch piece interesting is the increase in register above high G without using excessive pressure.

Now for the drawbacks (to Lynch) as I've observed in my playing which of course may be temporary:

1. My high G is less responsive on the Lynch even though the roadblock above is gone. The good old G was the centerpiece of my upper register (and also the end! lol). Now I'm finding that note more likely to slip upwards than hold steady.

2. The Lynch piece is waayyy too sharp on the inner rim bite and this is AFTER I had a local shop take something off the edge. I shudder to think what a stock piece would feel like.

3. In order to maintain my technique am going to do most near future gigs on a cocentric piece. Need more time to work the Lynch into the program.

More later, got to run

Lee
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,

Your quotes:

2) Use less downward horn angle pivot. By using less downward pivot you can alter the balance of roll-in between the top and bottom lips, which will achieve what the Asymmetric mouthpiece is doing for you.

My thoughts. Fine if you can do this. My experience is that trying to prevent my receded jaw chops from pivoting downwards as I ascend will cause a weaker tone or a change to a completely different embouchure. Have done some very modest experimentation with your described suggestion just prior to my and yours original post. There definately could be something to this technique, but not if it reduces my overall sound.

3) The receded jaw has similar effects to an upward horn pivot, so by using your receded jaw embouchure you are effectively using a less agressive downward pivot, which is 2). Experiment with jaw position.

4) You MUST keep mouthpiece pressure to a minimum as you experiment with these options.

The only differences between a player with a strong double G and one with a strong double C are very, very tiny changes in lip position.

My experience tells me that by reducing the downward angular motion it'll bring the lower lip more into play. The same as protruding the lower jaw. BUT this tends to make my embouchure less responsive on standard size mouthpieces. I had to switch to a huge piece in order to make the more protruded jaw setting "work".

Just for me, the more I protrude the lower jaw the more it inhibits the free vibration of the upper lip. Either I compensate with larger mouthpieces or play receded jaw formation totally. Have experimented with these matters a heck of a lot over the years.

Lee


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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lee,

Sounds like you experiment a lot already. I'm not trying to get you to analyse your embouchure, but just made some suggestions for some things to try, hopefully in an encouraging way. Too many trumpet players are 'locked' into an embouchure setting of mouthpiece choice, mouthpiece position, horn angle, jaw position etc, and are either afraid or incapable of experimenting with it. The fear is that they will 'lose' their chops.

You obviously have tried a variety of things - keep experimenting is all I can suggest. With progress in BE your chops WILL change, and things that you tried in the past that did not give a positive change may now in fact work. You obviously have found a 'setting' that works already - small variations in pivot etc are all that I am suggesting trying.

I am a bit puzzled by you having to go to a huge mouthpiece to make the protruded jaw work (of course, protruded jaw is a relative term. I have an overbite, so a protruded jaw for me is even alignment). How large are you talking here, and what mouthpiece position do you use with it?

Your comment that your high G has become unstable is encouraging. I always take instability as a sign that something is changing, and that with more development and experimentation real improvement can be gained. It is an opportunity, not a problem.

Anyway, I am on holiday for 2 weeks, so plan on getting a lot more practice done, to capitalize on the sudden development I had last week. Took me 6 months for that corn kernel to pop!

Michael
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,

Contact me offline and I'll send you a video of my extreme embouchure in action. This is really hysterical. Problem is that inspite of it's wierdness it's actually starting to work...

Mouthpiece size is HUGE. Over 3/4's an inch inside rim diameter.
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,

My fault here. I should have clued everybody in to who Lee is. Giving Lee roll-in advice is like telling the Pope how to be a good Catholic!

So Lee, I'm going to kind of brag on you and kind of criticize you, OK? I have to straddle the fence for awhile, for reasons which I hope will be clear.

Lee is an innovater without a home on the TH. But, since what he specializes in is an extreme rolled in lip setup, it is possible that what he does is more akin to BE than anything else on the TH. It's definitely not immediate family, but at least second cousin! So, he sometimes posts here, and I'm happy to hear his perspective.

Lee is already a well-respected lead trumpet player in the San Francisco area.

Lee is not an expert on BE!

He has pursued a pure rolled in embouchure for many years (his second embouchure) and is now starting to see the fruits of his labor pay off. Throughout those years, he started experimenting with mouthpiece design, using his direct playing experience to optimize designs which enhanced the effectiveness of his rolled in setup. With his current setup, he can play (as in "melodies") up to triple C on good days. I watched his video, and my dog went nuts!

He calls this the ERE (Extreme Range Embouchure).

I have one of his mouthpieces, and I was doing some experimentation with my students, but I've been ill for several weeks, and haven't been up to the task lately. That's why you haven't heard from me recently, Lee.

Part of me is uncomfortable bringing this ERE subject up, as I'm sure that many will be eager to grab for the latest high note carrot, without regard for the likely potential for crashing and burning. Lee does not have complete control of this embouchure yet, and has virtually no experience teaching it. Until there is more evidence, I have to advise readers here to stay on your current BE path, and if you have interest in ERE, at least wait until more is known.

I have found Lee to be an intelligent guy (other than his politics ), and I see the possibility that his innovations will someday be widely imitated. But right now, he's just another mad scientist.

That's about all I willing to say about this here, probably for many more months. I need a LOT more substance before pursuing this much further.

Lee, of course, can say what he wants. I hope that you get it nailed down, Lee!

Jeff
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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm in good company then, as I am a professional scientist, and some days even my wife thinks I'm mad

Lee, I'll contact you off-line. Probably won't be able to handle the bandwidth for video until I get back to work in a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see you play on a bird-bath.

A huge mouthpiece kinda makes sense for ERE - lets your lips roll in without that pesky rim getting in the way all the time. Seem to remember those Baroque trumpeters used cup diameters of about 0.75" - maybe you are rediscovering some Guild secrets?
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,

Sorry to hear of your continuing illness. Heard you had been under the weather over the holidays. Am especially sad to learn of this continuing situation.

For the record, I have as much to learn from this forum as anyone else here. The last thing I'd ever want to do would be to join the crowd of so called high note jocks (I DO NOT MEAN YOU! lol) trying to peddle "snake oil" online. You probably already knew that anyway. Given a choice between such activities I'd much rather continue to fix leaky showers here in S/F.

My original thread was meant to discuss recent activities related to your mouthpiece experiment in BE. As usual the topic pitched and rolled into a nearly out of control cadenza as is to be expected from time to time on TH. These matters concern me too.

Anyway, if I may get a chance to return to the original post for a wee bit: It seems the mouthpiece trick has activated some very favorable changes to my regular chops. This relates well to BE (I think...) in as much as these recent changes have made me more cognizant of the fear of change you discuss in BE.

Example: I have a short concert this coming Saturday. Since my chops have been going through a sudden metamorphisis am getting the old fear rattling through my brain. Things like accuracy, endurance, tone etc. are starting to work their way in and out of consciousness. I'm not tripping on it really bad. It's kinda just the process, fear of change. It'll all work out. Always has.

So get well soon or I'll send a hippie out to Texas just to haunt you!

The Mad Scientist.
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