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took off a week and did not noticed I switched over...



 
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drunkiq
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I had a respitory infection last week and it felt like I was breathing through a straw... I was feeling a lot better today and picked up my horn to play. For some reason stuff seemed eaiser, it was then i relized that i was using the BE setup rather then my old one.

So is this what happened to the rest of you?

-marc

[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2004-01-24 14:01 ]
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trumpetplayer87
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone think it advisable to concentrate on just BE for a week or two, take a few days completely off, and then come back? Right now my practicing is so sporadic it seems like it couldn't hurt me.

Bonnie
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drunkiq
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that would be advisable, if you look through the threads Jeff speaks about going cold turkey with only playing BE when starting out - my question is more into wanting to know if most that are using BE today consciously changed over or if they just suddenly where playing on BE rater then their old setup… I tried playing on my old setup today and it felt uncomfortable..

-marc


[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2004-01-24 15:25 ]
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Bob Cross
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the question of conscious channge in embouchure is a good one. Maybe Jeff will correct me if I am wrong here.

I would not even know what a "BE" setup is - if anybody knows, please describe it for me. Although I have read the book several times and practice it daily, I don't view BE as a type of setup or embouchure or pedagogy, but just a method to experience different sensations in order to find something that will work for me. If there were such a thing as a BE setup, then I would consider that to be a direct rather than an indirect method.

I have only been doing BE a couple of months, and I know my emboucure must have changed, since I am so much more capable in my range and flexibility. I do notice that I have more of my chops in the mp, and that I now move the corners in as I ascend, and that my aperture is more focused, and that much more of my resistance is coming from my lips than before, and that my lips move much more as I play - but this has not been conscious.

I did make one deliberate change - separating my teeth more. Actually I had to, since I could not tongue on the lips otherwise. That was a dramatic improvement. But I would probably have figured that out sooner or later if I had been persistent about getting my tongue on the lips.

I am worried that Bonnie will think she has to "do something" with her embouchure while playing, or change her set up consciously in some way. A lot of books instruct this way - but I read the BE book totally opposite.

When I am doing the exercises, I just follow the instructions - no need to think much about it. When I play, I forget about it and only notice how much better I am playing. I just don't think this system is all that complicated - which is why I like it so much and maybe why it works so well for me.

Like Bonnie, I panicked a few times early when my playing seemed to take a brief setback. But every time, the setback was a short prelude to a jump in ability. Now I get a bit excited when I have a bad day - I am confident that I am experiencing a "growing pain" and that soon I will be playing even better.

Bob
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trumpetplayer87
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to realize it's not something that I'll end up playing on. I'm going to get back to seriously practicing for an hour a day and then give it a little more time. Trumpet and all the other instruments I play go in cycles, sometimes I'm really consistent on one, and then another. However, since I've found trumpet can't really be neglected like that, I always spend extra time on it. Anyhow.....I need to get back to practicing! After districts I kind of backed off a lot.


Bonnie
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drunkiq
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob - for closure - I came from an open embouchure approach (rare). The hardest thing for me so far was in the beginning - I had the hardest time trying to make a sound with my trumpet when trying to buzz with my lips touching each other (only minutes), however making it sound good (focus) took longer...

To me my old approch vs. the new one are very very different, I now understand where you are coming from. If i had already been playing with a closed embouchure then I probably wouldn't have noticed a thing. Now I doubt I will get a responce to this but I would like to thank you for your responce in this matter...

-marc

[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2004-01-25 00:17 ]
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Bob Cross
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc -

I agree with you, since I notice that I too am playing with a more closed aperture, and more in line with what Jeff explains in the mechanics section of his book, than I used to. I worried about the semantics of a "BE set" since this might be taken by somebody starting out as an invitation to tinker with their embouchure instead of just doing the exercises.

I think some posters worry that success is defined by whether and how soon they can play all the exercises. My performance improved tremendously while I could only hiss on the roll in exercises.

I had no clue that my lips needed to move so much - the exercises woke those lips up. It is like learning to ride a bike - once you get the feel it is easy. Also like a bike, it is hard to learn by reading a theory or watching somebody else do it. Jeff has designed a program to allow you to get the proper feel. My old approach was at a dead end, and I can see now that regardless of all the instruction, I was going nowhere.

Bob
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HJ
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

Those are some excellent posts. Especially the part about the excitement on a bad day. Well, I cannot say that I am really excited, but it has proven more than once that change was at hand. Before BE a bad day was something that could ruin my chops and my spirit for weeks. Now, of course there are lesser days, but even on a lesser day I can play my daily double C (maybe I shouldn't try that, but, well, it kind of makes a bad day a bit better, maybe shorter, but better, haha).
I also agree with the observation that there is no BE-setup. These are motion exercises that give you, and only you(!, because it will feel different for everybody, because we all have different minds, backgrounds, methods, musical experience, ears etc.) the feel you need to make progress again. I teach a lot of kids, and most of them do BE. The nice thing is that I tell them that I do not know how they should do it, and they all figure it out!
For me it was a big surprise that playing high felt totally different from what I expected it to feel. It was like I had muscles I even didn't know were there.

To Bonnie and the rest: I never had the experience that I changed overnight or after a break. It just takes over slowly. I must say that I have really no clue how I played before BE, I cannot find this anymore. I know I am not yet Balanced, but there is certainly the intermediate feel.
What I did do, though, was in times were I did not have a gig in a month or so, I only did the BE exercises for a couple of weeks. After that, I just played with whatever felt right. I did not think of rolling in or out or bunching or whatever.
The only concious change I made was the chin bunch. I come from a Farkas embouchure and trained my chin to be flat for hours (I did this in the car, holding my chin pointed for as long as I could stand it, a painful experience). So I thaught it would be good to have the bunch as a counterweight. In my normal playing it is not really stable, but the bunch is slowly taking over.

Bert
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert,

About bunching the chin. If you feel it's helpful to be aware of your chin at all, a bunched up chin makes more sense than a flat chin, but isn't working conciously on the bunch in essence the same as working on flattening it? Some people won't have an obvious bunch of their chins and some might look flatter than others etc.. I feel that bunching the chin supports my lips, but it doesn't really cause them to actually move in a certain direction. In other words, the bunch is an effect of how the lips move. I'm commenting on this with our talk about what you called the 'protruding bottom lip' in the back of my mind.

Ko
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barryj1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree totally with Bob. Just do the BE excercises. Don't let your rational mind get in the way and louse things up. Don't set deadlines. Just play the excercises in the book and the rest will take care of itself.

Yesterday while practicing one of the roll-out excercises I land on a high A-flat. This from a trumpeter who in forty years of playing was lucky to hit the A-flat on the line above the staff much less an octave higher.

The Blanced Embouchure will ultimately fix what's broke but you have got to, get out of the way (i.e. put your rational mind in mothballs) and let the method work its magic. Prior to switching over, I considered myself a 'hopeless case'. Now I do my BE routine every day mostly focussing on the roll-out excercises since that's where I need the most work.

Regarding the high A-flat, I had to figure out, after the fact, what the tone was because I'd never hit anything that high. Then I went back and hit the note twice more just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.


Barry

[ This Message was edited by: barryj1 on 2004-01-25 18:35 ]
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HJ
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ko,

I read my post again and at a certain point it is not really consequent anymore. I state that I do not care too much about how I play when I don't do the BE-exercises, and one sentence down I state that I made a concious change to the chin bunch. Hmmmm, must have been tired.

You wrote:

- but isn't working conciously on the bunch in essence the same as working on flattening it?

Maybe it is, but at least it is a more promising direction. Just like you I put a lot of effort in trying to flatten my chin. Also, my natural playing (that is before I went to the conservatory) was more flat-chinned than not ( I was absolutely a first chair Johnny, really). So for me bunching the chin is important to unlearn the flat chin. To reteach my chin what to do. I have to exaggerate this very much and I feel I have to experiment with playing this way. On the other hand, what I said that in the end I play on whatever sounds best and feels best is still appropriate. Sometimes I try to catch a glimpse in a mirror when I am just having some fun, and I see a more flat than bunched chin to be honest. BUT when it feels best my chin does not matter anymore. It is just kinda out of the way. It does not really do anything. I noticed this with some good players, the chin does not move that much. He, that's it!!!!! The chin is unlocked, just like the corners!!! Ko, this is how it feels if everything comes together: the chin is unlocked!!!

You wrote:
-Some people won't have an obvious bunch of their chins and some might look flatter than others etc.. I feel that bunching the chin supports my lips, but it doesn't really cause them to actually move in a certain direction. In other words, the bunch is an effect of how the lips move. I'm commenting on this with our talk about what you called the 'protruding bottom lip' in the back of my mind.

Of course you are right here. I have some students that have a natural bunch, but a lousy tone/control, because their lips are not moving in the right direction. The bunch makes it easier to move the lips in the right direction (rolled-in), but the bunch is not the goal, nor does it cause the lips to automatically move in the right direction.

Unlocked chin frees the lips to do what they have to do, move towards the mpc, roll-in/out etc.

I think this is a nice conclusion.

Bert
Ko
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