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Mid-70's Elkhart Bachs, are they different?



 
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trumpetera
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Mid-70's Elkhart Bachs, are they different? Reply with quote

I have a feeling this has been discussed here numerous times, but I can't seem to make friends with the search engine...

My apologies if tis is an umpteenth repetition of a subject!

Thi thing is I've been offered to buy a ML37 serial 115xxx. Were they made different around those numbers, and if so, which were the differences?

I have a MtVernon serial 1700x and a Elkhart serial 20606x, but the 115xxx is a completely different animal.

I know- it can be down to individual instrument differences, but I'm just curious if there actually was something they did different around that time (1975-ish)

All the best!

trumpetera
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach Loyalist wrote:
It is generally understood that prior to S/N 121,7XX (approx. 1977), valve casings were made from 2 pieces. The top part was made of nickel silver... The metal (brass) valve guides were replaced with nylon plastic guides during the 1980ís.

http://www.bachloyalist.com/bach-trumpets-valve-variations/
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'Corporation' bells also make a significant difference, IMHO...
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Pete
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned a few Bach trumpets in my time. I still own a 1980 Bach LT which plays great. I also owned a 1977 37 Bach regular weight which was also a great horn.

I don't know if they are better. That period of time they may have been more consistent with quality control. Once they get into the 1990's Selmer was pumping out thousands of trumpets, and this ends up compromising quality control. This is not to say that you can't find a good playing Bach that is newer than a late 70's early 80's horn.

If it plays well, then you don't have anything to worry about.

Pete
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were less consistent. Quality control wasn't as good as now. However, the good ones were excellent.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In no particular order, here are my thoughts.

1. Everyone has preferences in how a horn plays. Some light tight horns, some like open. Some like rock solid slots, some like slippery slots. Some like bright, some like... well, you get the idea.
2. Most 37's are a little on the tight side. Some people might argue the nuance of that statement, but in any case I don't think you'll find anyone who says 37's are real open horns.
3. Bachs have a reputation for being inconsistent. So, while the 70's horns were considered, as a whole, to be very good horns, this example could be very good or very bad. Play before you buy if you can.
4. Similarly, even during the periods when Bach was reputed to be not-so-good, they made some very good horns. My 1974 43* is a very good horn that served me well for 35+ years, but really I like playing my 1998 72* more, and the 90's Bach horns weren't all that well regarded.
5. As I said, everyone has preferences. Dislikes, too. People rave about the Mt. Vernons, but I've never played one I liked. That's just me. Or maybe I only had the chance to play dogs. Yes, Bach made dogs in every year they've been in production. They've made good ones every year too.

Play this horn before you buy if at all possible.

-John
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off the top of my head the 115xxx vs new: different bracing, the valve casing was 2 piece vs 1 piece, and the bell wires were steel instead of brass.

Those actually do make a difference. However, there were still horrible horns in that era, I've played and owned several.

best of luck,
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had about a dozen Bachs over the years, the early Elks are crazy good. Next to my early NY, I would chose that vintage over any other. Of course, I barely know what I'm talking about.

ed
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When did they change the bell from side seam to bottom? My '79 is a bottom or inside the bend seam.
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProAm wrote:
When did they change the bell from side seam to bottom? My '79 is a bottom or inside the bend seam.


I think around 68xxx. I personally think the sound had more to do with the metal thickness and wire changes than where the seam hit.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
I've had about a dozen Bachs over the years, the early Elks are crazy good. Next to my early NY, I would chose that vintage over any other. Of course, I barely know what I'm talking about.

ed


When I bought my 43* in 1976 (a 1974 horn) some people around me said, "You're crazy to buy a new one. You can't get a good Bach any more." Nowadays, people see that horn and say, "Wow, you got one of the good ones. You can't get a good Bach any more."

As I said before, I think you can get a good Bach from any year.

John
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1972 Strad with a first valve trigger and an identical one from around 2005. There is a difference in how the gap is set up, but other than that they play the same to me.

As to searching TH try addin site:trumpetherald to your search using google or bing. This will limit results to stuff from TH.
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trumpetera
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys!

This horn has been owned since new by my sons trumpet teacher (not me, I love my son too much!), and it was actually selected by Tom Crown when a friend of the teacher brought a bunch of horns over to Sweden.

I like it a LOT. I've searched for a Bb that when playing 1st in opera or symphony on the Bb projects in a way that doesn't make you miss the C trumpet, and this one does.

I just wondered what the differences in production methods and small design details were compared to older and newer Bachs.

I own a 1943 ML37, a 1957 ML43, a 1972 LTML37 and my first trumpet, a 1980 ML37. The NY is a completely different design, but compared to the other three this one actually stands out as beeing the one with most projection and "omph".

He wants a lot of dough for it , though. I'm sitting here trying to figure out what to sell to be able to buy it..... damn....
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom-

Your first post was excellent!

I have owned many Bach Strads of all vintages. Every horn is different, but I have found certain tendencies depending on when the Strad was made.

To the OP:

The Strads I have owned with serial numbers around 115,000 have tended to have what I would call a "wistful" sound. A beautiful sound with a little melancholy mixed in. They also were a little less resistant than some earlier vintages.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I sold a Mt. Vernon trumpet in the 13,000 range to Doc Severinsen a number of years back. He told me that Bach changed something in the horns around the 16,000 serial number range, that all the horns after that played the same and that "none of them were any good". Interesting...

Sincerely

Steve Allison
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think that Doc said that some Bach employees stole the original tooling around the time the 16,000 horns were being produced. I am not saying he is necessarily correct, only that this is what he told me.

Steve
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetera wrote:
Thanks guys!

This horn has been owned since new by my sons trumpet teacher (not me, I love my son too much!), and it was actually selected by Tom Crown when a friend of the teacher brought a bunch of horns over to Sweden.

I like it a LOT. I've searched for a Bb that when playing 1st in opera or symphony on the Bb projects in a way that doesn't make you miss the C trumpet, and this one does.

I just wondered what the differences in production methods and small design details were compared to older and newer Bachs.

I own a 1943 ML37, a 1957 ML43, a 1972 LTML37 and my first trumpet, a 1980 ML37. The NY is a completely different design, but compared to the other three this one actually stands out as beeing the one with most projection and "omph".

He wants a lot of dough for it , though. I'm sitting here trying to figure out what to sell to be able to buy it..... damn....


Nice find!

In my opinion, a horn that plays that well is worth whatever someone is asking (within reason!).
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point in Elkhart, the bells because a thicker gauge. Not sure if that was 70's or earlier.
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