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Large cups and tight backbores



 
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botahoratiu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Large cups and tight backbores Reply with quote

Hi
Had anyone had any experiences with large/deep cups and small/tight backbores? Does any manufacturer have something like that in their line except Warburton and other modular models. Is this combination used by anyone here ? I currently play a Warburton 3D and a #3 backbore. I can't handle larger backbores like the 8* I also have. Any thoughts?
Horatiu
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello,
i think a deep cup can work with a tight backbore (if you feel better with such), depending on the throat.
For all around playing, i mean classical, melodies, ballads etc., deep cups work for me with #26 throat (or 25 and larger if i want a warmer sound), and symphonic bb.
It was ok with a tight bb also(without satisfying completely), but with a #26 throat instead of the standard 27 one.

best
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Callet Superchops 8 fits your description, I believe: http://www.callettrumpets.com/Mouthpieces.htm
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

generally not a lot of success with using a small backbore to a big and deep cup. it can work if the big deep cup is mated to a medium sized backbore, but generally work better with a medium sized backbore that still has a bit or early curve to it. A medium sized straighter taper backbore will be flat at high D. That is with most normal horns, and 99% of horns are pretty normal. Also, articulation gets weird when the backbore is too small for the cup.

a medium depth smaller cup can work with a medium curved backbore or a medium sized straight taper. Depends on the sound around the horn and the intonation feel of G on top of the staff.

Same way, shallow cups work best with the smaller backbores that are straighter taper. A small shallow cup on a medium sized or big curved taper backbore will be sharp up high and sharper yet around G on the top of the staff. They can be good feeling and great sounding around G above High C or A above that, but the intonation is the trade off. You can get used to anything:)
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Large cups and tight backbores Reply with quote

GR #1 backbore with any of their cups.



botahoratiu wrote:
Hi
Had anyone had any experiences with large/deep cups and small/tight backbores? Does any manufacturer have something like that in their line except Warburton and other modular models. Is this combination used by anyone here ? I currently play a Warburton 3D and a #3 backbore. I can't handle larger backbores like the 8* I also have. Any thoughts?
Horatiu
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much wisdom and experience there from Doug, aka Lipshurt. My .02 would be that a large ID but shallow cup can work really well with a tight commercial style backbore, but keeping commercial style cups with commercial style backbores (and vice versa) is a good idea. Personally, I only use a deep cup if I'm looking for "depth of tone," which has lots of application for jazz and not just orchestral music. I simply do not get said depth of tone with a tight backbore.

The OP mentioned "not being able to play" larger backbores. Specifically, what problem(s) do you encounter?
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JVL
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i must rectify : one of the mpc mentioned had not a tight bb, but a standard one.
While, playing one of my deep cup mpc around Bach A cup, i feel better with a #26 throat and a sympho bb, note that it also depend on the trumpet you're playing, and such or such combination will be ok at one point of your developpment, and no more further...

you have to try, it's very individual, and what seems logical on the paper will not work in the reality.

last, in some brands, you have the signature line that offers a lot of combinations of throats, cup shapes, backbore shapes etc., while with a same cup depth
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL raises a very valid point, that is all too easy to overlook. What may be the "standard" backbore for one manufacturer may be plenty big enough to at least work with a deep cup, (even if some players may prefer a bigger, more open backbore) whereas another manufacturer's "standard" backbore may be MUCH smaller, already towards the commercial side of things, and not play well with a deep orchestral cup at all.
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Hudson08
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As stated above, your horn is a big factor. That Schilke B1 is a pretty open horn. If you're hooked on it and want to continue the mouthpiece options, look into Bob Reeves.

Good luck!
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a historical note, I am currently messing around on a 1915 or so Courtois trumpet with matching period Courtois mouthpiece. This mouthpiece has a very big cup, a notch or two bigger than a 1 1/2C. The backbore is extremely tight until about 10mm from the end when it opens up. I am surprised how well it plays given how different it is.

So, this combo was apparently a standard thing in 1915..
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BJones
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally, I think a big cup with a small backbore would be a bad choice, unless you shortened the shank. I will try to explain why, as best I can.

Given two mouthpieces, one deep and one shallow, with the same backbore, the pitch center is relatively higher on the shallow one. That higher pitch center, along with more compression, is why when all things are equal, the mouthpiece plays better in the upper register. You can test this by finding the pitch at which the mouthpieces resonate best in the upper register and comparing.

Backbores behave a bit differently. If you take two mouthpieces, this time with the same cup, and one has a small backbore, and the other a large one. The mouthpiece with the larger backbore will have a higher pitch center than the small one.

When you combine a large cup and small backbore, the effect is more or less compounded, leaving you with a mouthpiece that will play quite flat in the upper register. The fix would be to shorten the shank to compensate. An example of this would be the Curry TF mouthpieces, which have large enough cups that the length must be shortened to account for tuning issues, both as far as the tuning slide and the tuning of the upper register.

EDIT: The alignment (or misalignment) of the harmonic series is more or less what determines whether a particular trumpet/mouthpiece "plays well" or doesn't. The issues outlined by lipshurt above largely stem from misalignment. Our ears/brains are very smart, and are always looking for that particular harmonic fit. When it's perfect/close, we think the instrument is good. When it's off, that's when we experience all sorts of problems.

TL;DR: You can figure out a way for it to work, but it's going to take some fabrication.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: Large cups and tight backbores Reply with quote

botahoratiu wrote:
Hi
Had anyone had any experiences with large/deep cups and small/tight backbores? Does any manufacturer have something like that in their line except Warburton and other modular models.


Tried it with Warburton parts on several occaisons and swiftly rejected...

It's certainly a very unusual choice (though I recall having this discussion a couple of times before?) and I can't see why any manufacturer would put out a standard model that's unbalanced to that extent... an overwhelming majority of players would reject it and it wouldn't sell.


But this is both the beauty and the beast of modular systems like Warburton offers:
You have a huge number of possible combinations available, many of them sensible and many of them not, and within the fairly sensible range you have the opportunity to fine-tune your setup to your personal needs... but within the "not" sensible ranges lie many combinations that are unbalanced, which could push players to develop bad habits to compensate (or could compensate for bad habits in the first place).


Fundamentally, wanting both a deep cup and a tight backbore is a contradiction.
One provides less resistance (the other provides more), one provides a darker and less focused tone (the other focuses the tone and makes it more directional)... the only way they both work in the same direction is that they both tend to flatten the upper register.


Quote:
I currently play a Warburton 3D and a #3 backbore. I can't handle larger backbores like the 8* I also have. Any thoughts?
Horatiu


Thoughts?

I think I'd be looking at how and why you've wound up with that setup, and whether it's compensating for something...
The overall equation of player+mouthpiece+horn needs to be balanced, and if you're using a clearly unbalanced element in one spot and getting a balanced end result then you've got an imbalance somewhere else...
- It could be that the horn is too open for you (by which I mean, more open than you need and would ideally be using, not "you can't play this") and you're adding resistance at the mouthpiece to compensate for that.. and the B1 is quite an open horn, so this is possible.
- It could be that you have a tendency to play sharp as you ascend, in which case creating a mouthpiece that tends flat could be counter-balancing that to some extent - and if that is the case, you could be perpetuating bad habits that your playing would benefit overwhelmingly from breaking (who doesn't want huge leaps forward in their playing?)
- It could, equally, just be that you've used this setup long enough to compensate for any inefficiencies caused by the imbalance - in which case, undoing those habits and using a more balanced setup could unlock advancements in your playing.


It would be interesting to hear why the 8* didn't work for you, and whether you'd tried those two combinations (3D/8* and 3D/3) on any other horns, perhaps a more typically resistant horn like a Bach 37 (or similar), and whether you'd found your results differed much?


I do wonder (so I have to ask), why this question keeps coming up?

You've posted about this mouthpiece several times now, is there something there that you're not happy with or are you somehow uneasy about using that particular setup?
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Locutus2k
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had excellent results in the past with the Curry 3B top plus the Curry 50S backbore (that is his "lead" model). I suggest the OP to try this combo i'm sure he will like it. Both are available at mouthpieceexpress.
I've tried other combos with large cup+tight bbores but as many suggested the results were too unbalanced and never liked any of them.
BUT the Curry combo is something special.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJones wrote:
Generally, I think a big cup with a small backbore would be a bad choice, unless you shortened the shank.


My 1915 big-cup-small-backbore mouthpiece is 5-10 mm shorter. The intonation is very good on it.

It very well could be the OP is playing sharp in the upper partials and this combo (including a long shank) is compensating.
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BJones
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
BJones wrote:
Generally, I think a big cup with a small backbore would be a bad choice, unless you shortened the shank.


My 1915 big-cup-small-backbore mouthpiece is 5-10 mm shorter. The intonation is very good on it.

It very well could be the OP is playing sharp in the upper partials and this combo (including a long shank) is compensating.


Yeah, 5-10mm is quite a bit shorter. That's Monette-style short. Early 20th century instrument/mouthpiece makers really knew a thing or two. They had to, as manufacturing processes weren't as perfected as much as they are today.

While your second point is possible, fundamentally, a Bach-length mouthpiece with a big cup and small backbore would be a poor match for the instrument, without the player being taken into account. Now, in order to play quite sharp in the upper register, you need extra tension or very fleshy lips with lots of lip engagment into the mouthpiece. Assuming the former, the proposed mouthpiece, without correction, would actually make that extra tension worse because you're having to fight the mouthpiece to play the right notes. Hope that all makes sense.

And while it's possible botahoratiu plays with lots of lip engagement, I have extremely fleshy lips with lots of lip engagement too. Big cups with small backbores don't work for me. The 'targets' in the upper register are all over the place, and the tuning is poor.

In the end, it's a question of balance. For the mouthpiece to match the horn, with a big cup and small backbore, something else has to change.
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LakeTahoeTrpt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thirty years ago, when I was playing a lot of brass quintet gigs, I used a Bach 1.25 C with a 117 backbore and a 26 throat. I loved it then; don't know if I could make it work now...
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has probably been said many times regarding mouthpieces. The different parts of a trumpet mouthpiece need to be in balance. One area affects another.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never had any luck with deep cups and "tight" backbores. You might be OK if you have a lot of lip intrusion in the cup - in effect reducing the cubic capacity of the D cup to something more like the M or SV when your lips are buzzing.

Just a thought - check your gap with all of your backbores. Possibly increasing the gap with the larger backbores might make them usable.
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