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Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant


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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zombie thread alert! Much needed though. We have some noobs having this same conversation all over again. Much better for them to read what we've all said 12 years ago first ...

In short, we all realise that rim size is personal, and yes there are instructors that don't get it.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deliberate zombie resurrection, raze :p
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:

In short, we all realise that rim size is personal, and yes there are instructors that don't get it.


This is exactly why I am cautious of "instructors" or some "teachers." I recently worked with a highschool bass clarinet player who wanted to learn trumpet for marching band. She did beautifully on a Bach 7C mouthpiece ... sounded good and stated that it felt great. Her school band director (himself a trumpet player) tells her that she "needs" to "graduate" to a Bach 3C. I told her to stay on the 7C ... more none sense. By the way, she made marching band ... AND ... the jazz ensemble.
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Last edited by RussellDDixon on Tue May 02, 2017 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupid. Ideology first, practicality second. My teacher was a Schilke student and he used a Schilke H (11) (like me) the comparable to a 7C. He not only played it in college but as principle in a Symphonic Orchestra, as well.

I did throughout my days at Univ. of North Texas with not a peep from Haynie; then in the AF and other parts unknown. Served me well.
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Jens :)
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dershem
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. We all start on something in the middle of the road, and then find out what suits our chops and our style of playing and the sound we want, and many of us find something that fits that, better or worse.
I started on an Olds 3, because it came with the horn. I was given a 7C because the band teacher was told that was what was required on trumpet. I was given oodles of advice from older and better players, and eventually first had Jet-Tone and then Marcinkewicz make me custom pieces that fit me better than what I'd found (or been told to play) before.
Would I tell a younger player to use m mouthpiece? No. Would I tell a marathon runner or tennis player to wear my shoes? What works for me may not work for you - find what does.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better to read also the post on page 2 by Gr tech.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Better to read also the post on page 2 by Gr tech.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had missed that post the previous several times this thread was brought back.

GR Tech made a good point about lip intrusion with larger diameter rims. I've found the same when trying different sizes: if I go too big, my lips protrude farther into the cup, which causes other difficulties. Back to where this all started for me: I need a rim inner diameter that's big enough to get my lips within the rim perimeter comfortably, but no bigger, else they start falling down into the cup.
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Mason3724
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR Tech wrote:

3. GR's 3 Rules of Brass Playing- Rule #3; There must be a match between the player, horn, and mouthpiece. If one changes the others must be able to accommodate the change or be changed as well. The system needs to be a match! [/u]


This is brilliant advice.
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

trumpetjens wrote:
I noticed a recent mouthpiece thread and thought I would weigh in with my own philosophy based upon a letter I wrote in the middle of the night to TPIN a year ago. It has been very slightly modified to reflect my current equipment...I have only made one real change now in about 10 years...and that was subtle.

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23
:41:49 EDT
From: JLindem96@aol.com
Subject: [TPIN] Jens Lindemann mouthpiece

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players. So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com
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