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Systematic approach. Extreme or not?


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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

To John Mohan: I was not exaggerating as in fact I could name a few very prominent orchestral players who have said the same thing here in London to me about this book. That's whats dubious to me John, and these guys who you call foolish have got permenant orchestral jobs, which i bet you have never had. Again, I can only speak for myself. Indeed I have to admit I only did it for 1 month personally, and found my sound going harsh and my Chop's just didn't feel right! I stopped the course. Furthermore, you don't need to be able to play double c in a symphony orchestra, as other obvious skills like sound, tuning, blending in etc....are what is required to do the job. I mean at the time I remember being fixed to play Mozart symphony - I know let's practice CG! Err NO! I guess it would be useful to studio/light players style, as I also know some fine players who use it in the west end musicals here in London. However, it did not work for me. What is also dubious, as you like to put it, is people like yourself and others claiming this book is the holy grail! There are of course many ways to become a good player! Everyone is different and has different needs. Indeed it is about the music! Furthermore, there are other books which recommend similar other material like Clarke, arban etc like Michael Sachs Daily Fundamentals book. In fact, everything you need as a trumpeter was written ages ago! Finally, suggesting to study with a CG student is great business which is what you are promoting on here and is what this all boils down to! My advice to people, is to save your money.
Best wishes.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems extreme to me to come onto a dedicated sub-forum just to bash the pedagogy it's dedicated to. It seems extremely tolerant for the Mod here to let it stand.

Hopefully the OP learns something here ...
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Oh please......I am not bashing anything. As I said it didn't work for me but some fine studio players I know use it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then I'll just add that I have used the book and it hasn't bothered me at all.

I can see where it may not be as effective for some symphony players as other methods. I may be wrong here, but it seems to have a generalist or studio player vibe to it. But that hardly means that it damages players. I don't see how.

I wonder if, no insult to anybody intended, that its not as a result of the above comments, that just plain common sense wasn't used.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I am sure the OP's colleague's claims are if not dubious, a very gross exaggeration. I've never met a person who would be so foolish as to stick with a book a full year, until it eventually caused him not to be able to play "a single note". I mean, for gosh sake, was the guy able to play only perhaps one note the day before he finished the book?!?! Gimme a break...

Everything Matt said (and Ron's comment about resting as much as you play during the individual exercises which is one of the things Matt meant when he wrote his number Seven above) is as good as it gets. Pops and others wrote good stuff, too.


+1!
I would suggest that your friend may have been an upstream player. Upstream players' embouchures can get really messed up with pedal note practice. The majority of players are downstream. That's why Bud Brisbois really didn't like pedals - because he was upstream. I am not an upstream player, but I also am not a fan of pedal tones, as I don't like what they do to the chops. I have recommended the CG method to students, a lot of times to thise who aren't in the situation where they can study privately a lot, or for someother such reason. I tell them to emit any of the pedal tone stuff. Claude's method has an absolutely masterful way of employing many of the most fundamental trumpet playing books we all use and need to develop many aspects of good trumpet playing. I also recommend Bill Knevitt's books, one of Claude's most well-known teachers of his method, and give them the same instructions. There is a tremendous wealth of trumpet playing knowledge to be gained by studying the CG method because of all the different fundamental aspects of trumpet playing that are espoused, and the approach to these fundamentals must have been honed over years, I would imagine, due to the detail and efficacy of the way the routines are laid out. All the very best, Lex

p.s. - Johnny Moehand has posted a big list of CG students here on the TH somewhere..Many names you would recognize - or at least have heard their playing while watching something on the internet (or, when you were growing up, on the tv).. Of course now I think they have the Google tv's which are internet/tv's combined or something like that;-)
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shofar
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Systematic Approach Reply with quote

This entire discussion seems a bit silly to me. John and several others here are correct. There's really nothing extreme about Systematic Approach. It's just that "SYSTEMATIC".

The issue is really not that it is any more extreme than any other book. In fact it is organized very well in helping any trumpet player cover and progress through many of the fundamentals we need to do daily.

But the bottom line is "...it's not what you play, but how you play..." You can find all of these same exercises, routines, notes, etc, any many other books. This just happens to be a book that's helps to organize a lot of this information into daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, whatever, way to practice. So it's really not what you play as much as how you play.

Later,

Rog
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Systematic Approach Reply with quote

shofar wrote:
This entire discussion seems a bit silly to me. John and several others here are correct. There's really nothing extreme about Systematic Approach. It's just that "SYSTEMATIC".

The issue is really not that it is any more extreme than any other book. In fact it is organized very well in helping any trumpet player cover and progress through many of the fundamentals we need to do daily.

But the bottom line is "...it's not what you play, but how you play..." You can find all of these same exercises, routines, notes, etc, any many other books. This just happens to be a book that's helps to organize a lot of this information into daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, whatever, way to practice.So it's really not what you play as much as how you play.

Later,

Rog
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Totally agree and that is why I latched on to it years ago and used it as my on "private instructor." I am also a big fan of the Bill Adam Routine Book written by LA Heavy Charley Davis for the exact same reason ... it's organized routines.

I also totally agree that it is HOW you utilize the exercises and work the entire "machine" in coordination while being cognizant on what you are feeling in your chops, tongue, and breath support. I believe that being able to innately know when to stop, when you need to take it easier, when you can push it harder etc. are also learned through time ... much like I lift weights by "feel" after having lifted and competed for many years. I know what days I am stronger and what days I am weaker and to back off some.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
To John Mohan: I was not exaggerating as in fact I could name a few very prominent orchestral players who have said the same thing here in London to me about this book. That's whats dubious to me John, and these guys who you call foolish have got permenant orchestral jobs, which i bet you have never had.


No, I've never had a "permenant [sic] orchestral" job. But I've played in top level orchestras during my career. More importantly, Frank Kaderabek (Principal Trumpet with the Philadelphia Orchestra for 20 years), Susan Slaughter (Principal Trumpet with the St. Louis Symphony for 36 years and a member of the section for 40 years), Fred Sautter (Principal Trumpet with the Oregon Symphony), and John Clyman (Principal Trumpet for the Los Angeles Philharmonic for many years) all were proponents of Claude Gordon's teaching and books (Susan was one of his students).

If I didn't make it clear before, I will now. I do not believe you. It is preposterous to think that someone (anyone) spent a year doing SA and wasn't "able to play one note" as a result. And in that vein, I did not call anyone foolish. I implied it would be foolish to continue doing something that causes severe negative results. I don't believe anyone did.

You wrote that your own playing got a bit ragged after using the book for a month. Well, yes, that can happen. Especially if one over does it or does the material incorrectly (which is why a good CG teacher is a handy thing to have). And even if one does it correctly, it's not unusual to have one's tone get a little harsh for a while as one acclimates to the exercises. But that does clear up if one sticks with it (and practices the material correctly).

I find it interesting that anyone would claim that orchestral players came to grievous harm from using Claude's book and exercises, given that the exercises in the book were based on those developed by Louis Maggio, a player with the St. Paul Symphony who created and used the exercises to rebuild his embouchure after he sustained injuries in a tragic accident slipping on ice. Using those exercises he was able to develop a range to Double C (a range he hadn't had previously) and regain his chair within a year - and the exercises from the various books that Claude assigns material from in Systematic Approach are all classics in the literature of trumpet pedagogy.

Things that make you go hmmm...
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EricV
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Thanks for saying what im sure most of us reading this have been thinking......it doesnt make any sense.

Amazes me why people who want to start a discussion thread dont ask something that will generate an educational and interesting exhange of thoughts instead of this type of stuff. Same as in life i guess, some cant do without the drama!!

cheers
Eric
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good medicine used the wrong way will kill you.

It's how you practice that counts. It's not just mindlessly playing material that matters as much as working for the knack of correct playing.

Things like feeling the coordination of tongue level and wind power are a bigger deal than advancing through a book just to get to the next page. K Tongue Modified single tonguing is not optional.

I was recently hanging out back stage with Lee Loughnane of Chicago and a local trumpet player that I know was asking him about KTM and Lee said it was essential and the correct way and to talk with me about why. Cool endorsement from Lee but the bigger point is that he has experienced how much better these things work and he knows.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Wow! It's certainly good to debate!
Didn't realize people would kick up quite a stir tho!
As mentioned I'm very fond of Maggio's exercises, and find it a better book for me.
At the end of the day, we are all so lucky to play this fantastic instrument the trumpet.

Got to run for a train to rehearsal now......

Happy playing everyone.

Best wishes.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played Systematic Approach daily for over a year and my chops are just fine! In fact, they are better than ever. Granted, my progress has been under a very good Gordon instructor. I believe your chops should tell when its time to stop and rest. My vote is that its only extreme if you let it be extreme!
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used the Systematic Approach for many years without any instructor. During that time, I have developed my daily playable range from a double pedal C to a Double C. I have never had any chop problems, scars etc.

As Jeff Purtle stated, it is how one utilizes the exercises that really advances ones playing ... not just playing through them. This book is comprised of basics such as Clarke, Schlossberg, Colin's Lip Flexibilities etc.

I don't think I have played beyond lesson five yet either because there is just so much material to work on.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Just a last note on this topic from me guys. Thought I would have a look through systematic approach, and I think it's worth saying that there are indeed many aspects to the book that encompass a well rounded approach. For example, I notice that some people see the book as just a high note thing. It is NOT!
There are fantastic other things that I personally already do in my daily stuff. For instance,
Clarke studies is a brilliant book and in my opinion should be done by all serious players!
Flexibilities are essential if approached properly, like the Colin book ( This red book remains one of my favourites!) Arban slurring sections are of course great!
Really nice to see St. Jacome in there - this book isn't mentioned enough!!
Personally, I like his Grand artistic Etudes as they are great for endurance, which prepares me for some of the playing I do. Very challenging if you follow the dynamics etc..!!!
The list could go on.......as pointed out by some people here it is definitely HOW you approach all these things in order to make progress.
These are my honest straight forward thoughts on the book.
Happy blowing everyone.
Best wishes.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
Just a last note on this topic from me guys. Thought I would have a look through systematic approach, and I think it's worth saying that there are indeed many aspects to the book that encompass a well rounded approach. For example, I notice that some people see the book as just a high note thing. It is NOT!
There are fantastic other things that I personally already do in my daily stuff. For instance,
Clarke studies is a brilliant book and in my opinion should be done by all serious players!
Flexibilities are essential if approached properly, like the Colin book ( This red book remains one of my favourites!) Arban slurring sections are of course great!
Really nice to see St. Jacome in there - this book isn't mentioned enough!!
Personally, I like his Grand artistic Etudes as they are great for endurance, which prepares me for some of the playing I do. Very challenging if you follow the dynamics etc..!!!
The list could go on.......as pointed out by some people here it is definitely HOW you approach all these things in order to make progress.
These are my honest straight forward thoughts on the book.
Happy blowing everyone.
Best wishes.


If there were a thumbs up emoticon available on the TH I'd be using it now! As Claude would say to you, Hit it hard and wish it well!
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976:

I see you actually did something that Claude taught.

"Always get the sense of what the author of a given book intended." - (Paraphrase) - Claude Gordon.

I second John's "thumbs up"!

Cheers,
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

To Matt and John: Thank you gentlemen!
I'm not entirely sure that people are getting my British personality here, and maybe its getting lost across the ocean as I transmit! Seriously though, like you guys I also had a long standing famous teacher, who played on "Penny Lane" by The Beatles. Indeed, it was always a pleasure to welcome his knowledge and generosity with all things trumpet.
Also, like Claude Gordon, I always admired his dedication to the instrument and to his students.
Hope your both well.

Best wishes.
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976:

No worries, BBB1976!

I do have extreme admiration for your teacher!

Cheers!

and Best Wishes as well!
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