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My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions


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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Is the feeling on the trumpet really exactly like the spit buzz?


When things are working well, yes.

I have this video that isn't publicly available on YT (because it's poor quality and I should re-make it!!). It might help...


Link

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Justus
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting video, I always find these really helpful!

I often start with a spit buzz before playing a note on the instrument.
However, when leaving the tongue in the exact spit buzz position I tend to get a rather unfocused sound and my tongue vibrates (feels very weird), so I thought that this was too much tongue.
Did you have that same feeling initially? Maybe the lower lip is not gripping enough against the tongue?


Last edited by Justus on Tue May 30, 2017 4:57 am; edited 3 times in total
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I reread the MSC instructions yesterday and focused more on doing a tongue stop which helps a lot in trying to avoid letting the tongue recede. Whenever the tongue does recede, at least for me, it's at this point unfortunately still an extremely well ingrained habit to increase blow and arch the back of the tongue to compensate it.


Yeah this was the same for me. It just takes time. Actually I didn't even notice when I stopped doing this. At some point in the last couple of years doing the right thing has become a habit. I think all of the thinking is important so that you can decide what you want to be doing but it does take time to overwrite some habits, especially if it's something you were encouraged to do in the past like overblowing...
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:
Very interesting video, I always find these really helpful!

I often start with a spit buzz before playing a note on the instrument.
However, when leaving the tongue in the exact spit buzz position I tend to get a rather unfocused sound and my tongue vibrates (feels very weird), so I thought that this was too much tongue.
Did you have that same feeling initially? Maybe the lower lip is not gripping enough against the tongue?


I'm not sure about this one without seeing it. Sorry!
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries! I'll make a video when I practice later today!

Yesterday at a long big band rehearsal I realised though that, when I don't think about it, I don't bring my upper lip down/in enough. That leads me to use mouthpiece pressure to force it in.

That could potentially be the reason for why it felt weird when I put the tongue extremely forward as in the spit buzz (not enough resistance from the top lip).
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here are two videos from my practicing session today. Some (rather messy) staccato scales and a short video about the weird sensation and unfocused notes I get when playing on the instrument exactly with the spit buzz set up.

In the mid register I do see progress every day, though it frustrates me a bit that, given my very diligent practicing (3h/day on average currently), it's not improving faster.

I've experimented with bringing my tongue more forward a long time today. When I do that the tongue actually seems to seal off the middle part and thus creates unnecessary resistance and makes the notes entirely unfocused.
With my current playing on the instrument the difference to the spit buzz feeling isn't big, but there definitely is one. I can only produce an in-tune note when the contact with both lips is less pronounced (it's still there though, just not as easy to feel).


I would really appreciate feedback on the clips! There definitely still is a lot of room for improvement. It would be great to hear though if I seem to be on the right track or not.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Justus,

I will also make a video to go along with this reply. I will be able to do it later today.

I think that the thing that is missing from your spit buzz and playing is compression. You just need to focus on making the spit buzz louder by using less air will more aggression!

Remember that this is just a physical exercise - it doesn't need to be how you play music, but it is how you will practise to make playing easier.

When you can make those attacks stronger and shorter then they will sound much better in the trumpet. I can hear that your tongue is on the lips so you shouldn't be worried about that position for now.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the response, Trumpetplanet!

I've listened to your spit buzz a lot recently in trying to improve it. You're absolutely right about it needing to be more aggressive and using less air.

I'll continue working on it, but it's great to know that I seem to move in the right direction generally!
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Justus
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made a huge leap today in terms of understanding the TCE embouchure mechanics. I noticed that when I spit buzzed across several octaves (Double pedal to middle C), some notes didn't really slot. I fooled a bit around and discovered the following:

Things work best if there is no visible motion at all in the chin. The lower lip is equally high regardless of whether I am spit buzzing double pedal or middle C. The only motion taking place is inwards of the lower lip against the tongue wedge to ascend in pitch.

With that set up (always bringing the aperture up using the chin, but then leaving the chin shape unchanged over all registers) I can now spit buzz slurred and attacked with a much more resonant sound across all 3 octaves.

As soon as I started doing this with the instrument (at the end of the practicing session though), things started working great. I immediately stopped using tongue arch (which I had fought with today before).

Moral of the story for me today:
1. Don't let the chin descend (ascend) for low (high) register notes, only move the lower lip outwards (inwards), especially when spit buzzing. The subtle part is that the chin is controlling the grip of the lower lip against the tongue, but (just like the tongue) it doesn't move in the process (Maybe this is entirely trivial, but it took me until today to clearly see this).

2. Don't focus on what motion not to do. Old habits like tongue arch only come into play when the new dynamics aren't working correctly. I can develop as much tongue strength as I like, but if my chin and lower lip aren't functioning, it won't work.

Question: If observation 1 is correct, wouldn't it be appropriate to describe the TCE dynamics with "lips roll in against tongue wedge to ascend" (I think I've read here several times that ostensibly no roll in takes place in TCE)?
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